Work'n in a Coal Mine
What Oberlin's Mayor and council say about AMP OHIO.
posted by terminator1 @ 1:45 PM
26 Comments
Saturday, October 3, 2009
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26 Comments:
Great! aleast we know three other clowns in town besides you. It's to late we signed the deal.
Thanks for this post, A program like this should have gone to the voters. What makes Joe Hada or any of the other councilpeople experts on electric power. Think 50 years.
I agree what right does the city administration or council have to involve our power plant in a deal like this without a vote from the people? A person who gets there power from a municipal electric power plant, is not allowed to purchase power on the open market. Where were the public meeting on this subject, did the city inform us about getting involved in this deal? Sorry I received no notice How would you buy a house and the contractors getting you to sign for the deal no matter what the final cost would be. Do you think he will look out for your interest or his?
It's not to late as not one shovel of dirt has been turned over to start this plant in Meigs County.
Once the dirt is moved we are locked in. There is still time to pull out of this.
When Council voted, the cost for the plant was $1.2 billion dollars. Council knew there was no set price on this plant, today the cost of the plant is an estimated $3.3 billion, plus financing.
Excavation has not even started and we all know the price will escalate once construction starts.
38 coal plants have been scraped nation wide in the past two years and yet AMP Ohio and Painesville forge ahead with your tax dollars.
You think the budget is tight now...... prepare yourselves for what's coming.
In reality buying off the grid would have been far cheaper. Better yet....... get off the grid!
I am really at a loss to see where all the name calling solves anything. Please present an intelligent argument for AMP Ohio if you are so sold on what a bargain this is. I would like to hear it.
MP
When I start to see such ludricous behind the scenes activities such as this, I start seeing corruption..kickbacks..Cuyahoga County shenanigans. With an issue that will have such an impact on our city and its future well after the CM has left, why was this issue not presented in public forum for discussion and debate.
50 YEARS...let me say that again..50 YEARS we will be responsible for providing $$$ for the operation of this facility. In addition to the fact of considering how much the cost of the facility has grown and not a shovel of dirt has even been moved. To me, it is like a variable rate credit card, you get locked into it...rates keep going higher and higher and you have little or no say on the matter.
Can someone tell me what we are actually gaining by becoming a part of this program?
Ms Miller,
The great almighty, get of you soap box, go back to your pot.
Yes, Ms. Miller what are you doing exposing all the stupidity in Painesville most had no clue this was taking place.
Ms Miller?
Get off the grid??
I don't think "you" can. Can you run your kilns with your own wind mill or solar cells? I don't think so. You probably have one of the largest carbon footprints of any "residential" home in the area. Another Al Gore.
I will agree that the open end portion of this project makes it a very poor decision. No businessman in his right mind would go into a deal like this. We also have to accept the fact that until we have made more progress in green energy that we are tied to "the grid" and can't ignore that our energy needs are growing. A lot can happen in 50 years, so this could turn into an even a worse decision.
Still, we can't bury our heads in the sand and not make some kind of plan for say the next 10 or 20 years. 50 years, out of the question.
So oberlin has no plan for the future and will be stuck running with electricity only on days it happens to be windy. Not what I want for my city. Just like this site. Rather than be objective you go out and accuse the government of corruption kickbacks and wrongdoing with NO REASON and NO EVIDENCE. You should be ashamed, but you are beyond that.
Get off the grid?, buying off the grid cheaper?
Does Madpotter even have a clue how the whole electric grid thing is set-up or works?
Badger,
It is possible to get off the grid. There are several families in this area (Mentor, Pvl, Akron) who are already off the grid.
As for my "business" when the economy tanked so did 12 of the galleries I stocked. So sorry no business in a residential area here. The kilns have been idle for almost 2 years and I work for a marketing company; shocking. Yes, I occasionally fire up a kiln for gifts but currently am buying space in a co-op propane kiln fired elsewhere. When you only have one or two pieces to fire the feasibility of firing up any kiln isn't smart.
I am sure Pvl Power misses me, but alas no card.
Check out:
http://www.energyxchange.org/
Landfills and artists just seem to go hand and hand.
My flower gardens have been turned into veggie gardens. We were amazed at the amount of food we harvested this year, enough to can and store for this winter, bumper crop of potatoes. Enough of my carbon footprint. Hardly Al Gore!
In Germany, a country who gets lets sun then northeastern ohio but is second in the world in the solar industry (Japan #1) has made it profitable with return passed on to it's citizens. Brazil has cut their ties to oil, can't wait to see what they do with the Olympics!
I am simply saying I think there are changes coming down the pike, and much sooner than 50 years. We will be tied to this thing for 50 years with escalating prices while other communities and countries will be speeding by in their hydrogen powered cars.
The grid will be here for a very long time and in reality I think buying off the grid might have been wiser decision for the citizens of P'vll than investing in a coal plant hundreds of miles away. I will be surprised if it goes forward.
MP
aka: Ms Miller........
Interesting viewpoints.
If we decide not to go forward and in 20 years we don't have some form of alternate energy, and we end up paying triple or quadruple bidding against everyone else on the grid what kind of economic disaster will the city be facing? I think that is more of an unknown than knowing we have to buy a certain amount of electricity at a certain price to pay our share of the plant.
If we are going to solar, or wind, or natural gas, who is investing the billions needed to develop and deploy that tech? Current storage technology for those types of power to make them viable is to fill huge warehouses with large lead based batteries that can store power when its generated and release it when needed. So, the generation is clean, but the environmental risk of lead based batteries is probably as bad or worse than the generation risk!
I think if you look fairly at both sides there is just as much unknown and risks.
8:06
I agree. We are not at a point where green energy is a viable alternative. Storage of power and the high initial cost of setting up a system rules this out for probably 99.9% of the people in Painesville. Don't forget the more than 50% rental rate. What renter or landlord would go for this.
Yes, recycling and green energy are the wave of the future. My question is, who in Painesville would invest that kind of money and be stuck in a city with all the other problems? High ideals sometime get shot down by the reality of who can afford to carry them out.
Badger, High ideals? Painesville has one of the top five oldest electric plants in the whole country. They took a gamle on a new technology electric power. At that time there were probably people in town wanting the city fathers to invest in a candle making businesness somewhere telling them for light in the next 50 years you will need candles! They weren't bad or stupid people candles is what they knew and trusted for light. I and alot of other people believe coal is at the end of its power journey, and the only ones pushing it are people who's paycheck's or stocks depends on it, just like the candle makers. Lets not say what we can't do but what we know we should do. Painesville is right now in the process of storing electricity with a company
I was referring to investing in going off the grid by the average homeowner in Painesville. Not the city's AMP Ohio investment. What homeowner, landlord, or renter will invest the amount of money needed to take their home off the grid. The electric cars are a step in the right direction but the initial investment does take time to pay for itself. The same goes for home energy needs. Once the technology gets better and the costs come down some it will not be a affordable solution for most people. That goes for most of Painesville's residents as I said.
This whole argument really needs to come down to "How much can the city residents afford to pay for electric?"
Everyone prefers "green", the most likely being natural gas. The carbon footprint is half of coal and currently is twice the cost to produce. The problem is as we take coal off line and add natural gas power generating plants the cost of natural gas will go up with the demand and then we will pay more for not only electric but also heating in the winter time.
How many of you can afford to see your utility bills possibly double?
Someone told me about the TVA project. It is coming online in 2 years and sounds very promising, yet they still only have 18% generation of natural gas that they will need to run that plant. Anyone want to guess what it will cost to get get that other 82% in the next 2 years?
Here is a question to throw out for discussion, if the new technology for burning coal "cleaner" is proven to work and the carbon footprint is reduced to match that of natural gas at half the generation cost how many of you would then want to go back to coal? If green is the reason here, same carbon footprint, half the cost?
How many of you can afford to see your electric costs double?
How much can city residents afford to pay for electricity?
These truly are the questions.
"IF" the new technology works?
Great what if it doesn't?
This might surprise you but my reason against this plant is more economic then enviromental. Ask yourself who owns the plant? who controls the costs? who decides what technology to use? After you answer these questions AMP-OHIO then ask what is there investment in the plant 50 million 200million? as far as I can tell they don't have an investment.There going to use our money and credit along with everyone elses.
This is good bussiness?
Read the fine print who makes money off of excess production?
I guess its a good point to ask whats in this for AMP-OHIO there not doing this out of the goodness of there heart. What is the exposer to them is any of there money at risk? Who makes money off of excess power generation? Why can't they get normal financing? The main point is what do you know about power plants and there futures Term? probaly the same amout as the people that voted on this project. I'm betting Amp has less capital in this than Painesville? What are they getting a stipends out of this, oh well thats another subject
Have not heard one word about nuclear to use during a transition. Yes, nuclear is cleaner and cheaper than coal.
also check out
http://push.pickensplan.com/
take a minute and listen to his video........
so many questions........
so many answers and debates.......
MP
Nuclear is cleaner until you have to deal with the waste. Also, what new technology is or will be used to make the use of coal in a new plant cleaner than an old plant like Painesville's. Do we want to pass the nuclear waste problem on to our kids.
Exactly how much cheaper is it to build a NEW nuclear power plant. Talk about an open end contract and cost overruns, not to mention environmental impact studies. We all know how much the Perry plant was under budget. NOT. How much to fire up the second reactor? Who knows but it won't be cheap.
No one has mentioned oil, natural gas or methane gas plants use for electricity production. While not used in great numbers, there are some. How about the few plants that burn garbage a generate electricity?
All these sources of power have problems. Lead in storage batteries for solar and wind, fossil fuel emissions and radioactive wastes all impact our environment.
Lot's of questions and few answers.
So I guess coal is the energy of the future?
google this and see what you think
marcellus shale formation
don't forget to check-out the map
seems someone you know may be sitting on it right now.
Badger,
Take a tour of what Canada is doing with their nuclear waste..... and they are not burying it in a mountain for their kids to deal with. France seems to have this figured out too.
Check out Oak Ridge, Tenn. In the 80's when the country pulled the plug on nuclear energy, Oak Ridge was ready to go. At the stroke of midnight Congress pulled the plug. Stone and Webster Engineering buried everything under 10 feet of soil. All documentation is there and ready to go.
It could be a viable transition source while we figure out what the next step is. A nuke plant is only going to last so many years.
Yes, am very familiar with Methane Digesters, Natural Gas and there is no such thing as clean coal.
Biggest problem is cost. And I bet the government is going to subsidize a chunk of which ever energy form they end up using...... aka tax payer money.
If residential housing could get off the grid and even have the possibility to sell power back to the energy company I'm pretty sure it would make a difference. Taking some of the load off the precious base load.
MP
and yes basic physics suggests there is no action without a reaction......... aka.... no free lunch!
Big deal we got alot of gas under us, were looking for electricity. I hope you don't freeze.
MadPotter, you seem to think radioactivity goes away in a few years. You can recycle spent nuclear waste and it is then safe and that doesn't produce any spent waste when you do. Even if you recycle (reprocess), the reuse still produces spent waste. Spent waste can't just be kept in the back lot until it is recycled. The storage whether in water or concrete containers above ground still has risk and cost. Ground water or airborne contamination don't need to be worried about? They may recycle spent waste but that does NOT eliminate it or the danger all together. Plutonium and others still have to be dealt with.
Not in my back yard????? If it is so safe and easy to recycle and store, would you like it stored in the middle of your compost pile, well, garden and up wind of your house?
All I'm saying is that all the current methods of generating electricity have their own environmental impact. Nuclear waste has the most long lasting impact to deal with.
I'd also like to get off the grid. I also live in Painesville City. Can you tell me how much it is going to cost for me to do this? How much will your system cost?
I agree with Badger, Term and Madpotter. A long term investment in AMP coal plant makes little sense. I also agree with Badger that ignoring coal and going nuclear may not be a wise investment either. Would anyone want to invest the money for 50 years Painesville wants for AMP to help startup the second reactor in Perry? Same reason. No way to predict the final costs for either choice.
We all will need more energy, just not more potentially bad investments. Green energy is the wave of the future, just not cost effective or practical for wide spread use yet.
Badger you wouldn't agree with madpotter if she gave you a million dollars. You would complain you now have to make another trip to the bank. Coal is kaput! 50 years someones been in the Kool-aid!
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