"SHOWED UP IN MY DOOR"
A yellow flyer showed up in my door the other day.
The proposed AMP-OHIO cal plant:
A bad deal for Painesville electric customers and a huge public health mistake
AMP-OHIO an association of municipal utilities, is proposing to build a 3.3 billion-plus coal plant in southeastern Ohio. AMP-OHIO convinced its member communities to agree to binding,50-year contracts which would lock-im residents and business to pay for the costs of building the plant until 2057. Painesville City Council voted to participate in construction of this coal fired power plant on October 15,2007.
The "take or pay" contract means that electric ratepayers will have to pay no matter what it ends up costing and no matter what better alternatives become available.
It's not to late to cancel this deal and find a better alternative
The member communities of AMP-OHIO who are participating have the right to cancel the contract before AMP-OHIO gives the final "notice to proceed" to the contractor. The date for this notice has not been set, and the schedule has already been delayed several times.
Circumstances have changed significantly since this plant was first proposed in2002. The rising costs of this plant and the changing environment for energy alternatives means that AMP-OHIO members should make wise decision to find a more productive and environmentally sound way to spend over $3 billion.
If AMP-OHIO cancels this plant, they would not be alone.A total of 38 proposed coal plants have been canceled across the country in the past two years by utilities and public officials who have decided to seek alternatives.
The back of the page was filled with all the environmental information, and its affect on public health.
Ohio Citizen Action
www.ohiocitizen.org
Anybody with a comment?
posted by terminator1 @ 7:40 PM
30 Comments
30 Comments:
The people of Painesville should have voted on this, not just council. Expenditures like this should take a citywide vote. Tell me who on council is an expert on finance or electric generating plants? We pay the cost no matter what the final cost?
G.E.
i heard recently about this amp plan again from the main source-ms mcmahon. we can not produce enough electric for ourselves and have to buy some over the summer months which is extremely expensive. she also informed us of some other power investments like hydro on the ohio river and looking at wind power as well. These investments will not leave us(the consumers) at the mercy of the energy market.
if we are going to expand we have to have power. everyone wants power, but nobody wants power plants and power lines.
its nice to know that there was some well thought out planning going on in and around town to improve the city and its services. thanks to those who obtained the funds for the projects and for providing future opportunities for entrepeneurs
i am not expecting a raise so i will have to work harder at my private business to make extra money. ain't no use belly aching about it.
maddog
How do you sign a contract if you have no idea of the final cost and you are bound to it for 50 years?
Maddog, would you sign a contract with someone to build you a new building and they told you ,there are many reasons why I don't know the final cost due to numerous reasons legal, ect. but if you sign this you have to pay me whatever I say the building costs when I'm done? Please be honest.
KAREN
great question Karen, the answer to the way you asked is "no." but if it is within a certain percentage, or inflation then probably "yes" with plenty of time to pay it off. can i buy a $100,000 year house in one year-no let me explain....
if you plan on building a house they tell you to get a plan. if you build the house this year you know the cost.
now you have to submit the plan to the to the county for an address, septic, well etc. then you have to take this to the builder and get a quote, then to the bank to get some money. generally along the way you have to back track to one of the steps which sets you back in time, then weather gets bad so you postpone to next year.
prices go up, back through the red tape. kids need braces, car breaks down, can't sell my house cant afford it this year, so i wait
next year-price goes up. i start building my house and things have to change in electric and plumbing because the code has changed-price went up. but when i did my plan i figured in a 10 percent increase for just "extras" when i borrowed. i have thirty years to pay for the increase.
i know this because i experienced it! i think you get my drift here. if you recall the perry nuclear power plant experienced this. the price of the plant increased over the life of the project, most do.
again the city needs the power now, if the city and jedd is going to proceed, prosper and grow we need the power and infrastructure. do we tread water or swim? could mean a big company passes us by. could mean alot of little businesses pass by.
from my perspective it appears that our power issue is trying to catch up to the demand. now if i could sell everyong in town a pellet stove, i could decrease the amount of power needed in the city.
again karen great question, to stimulate conversation and viewpoints. just put the amp ohio project on a bigger scale. we just got the night before the big project jitters. i know i've been there
maddog
Answer the question Maddog, would you agree to the contract under the provisions of the AMP contract?
@What if the price doubled [it could] maybe its easier to say yes if your purchasing the building for 20,000 other people. This was done in hast and why has'nt it proceeded?
It is my understanding that the City needs to plan now as their usage outweighs their output. In simple terms we have to make do something. I understood what Maddog said when they talked about the house building scenario. I too have been there and costs waiver terribly during a project. And with a huge project of this magnitude I would think that the over runs would be huge also. So who out there could pin down a number anyway?
Would I vote? I would need to see all the literature and then make an informed decision. And someone commented that the citizens should get a vote as to what they wish to happen here. Did you not vote when the council people you elected voted? They were put in place to make these types of decisions and I am sure that they consulted the proper people who are the professionals to advise them. JT
term, i dont know the contract. i am not an expert so i would hire my attorney to look at it and an expert.
i have looked into this and they started planning back in 2002. from what i have seen it is replacing a plant that is 60 years old and will lower emmissions. i see that amp ohio explains everything at their site and does not stick flyers in doors, but hires the number one engineering, construction and project management companies in the united states-(bechtel.com)
there are 80 cities in amp, are all of them wrong? did all of them not read the contract? do you take the shot or not?
i see the plant is being built by bechtel and is going to bring in 20million annually after its built. hell build it here, i'll get some of that 20 million.
this aint a democracy, its a republic. we cant have a vote on everything. the council and city dont have to be experts, just hire them and get an opinion. then ACT, stick to the plan and adapt if you need to.
so yes term and karen, if i knew that i needed an extra 25 megawatts of power for the next 100years i would make the investment and then i would start looking for another 25 megawatts of power
of course we could go to the california rolling black outs, and i won't be happy that evening when they hit elberta drive.
maddog
Not knowing the final cost is common in new construction. As long as it is a reasonable increase construction continues. None of you have obviously been in this business to understand. I doubt that "hast" affected things. More time would likely have yielded the same outcome. Yes you have questions and concerns about the project but if you are ignorant of its inner workings or how these projects normally proceed then can we please skip the accusations that the city screwed up here? Whenever you guys are ignorant of what is going on or what is normal, that is your first conclusion. In my business cost over runs are normal in construction. Its not power plants we build not overruns are still to be expected. As pointed out above, don't let your short-sightedness blind you to the benefit the city stands to gain.
I understand what all of you are saying but what incentive does AMP-OHIO or the Contractor's have for keeping the costs in line? The banks holding the notes/bonds can sell them knowing they are guaranteed their money because of the "pay or take" clause.
Maddog don't laugh about California the "greenies" can add unbelieveable cost to a project like this and the costs the government could add should make everyone think twice. The power that plant makes could cost twice as much as electricity on the open market. I think one of the most important stimulus projects this country should do is build 20 nuclear power plants around the country to produce clean power and as a stopgap between coal and the next generation of power.
for every consultant someone hires theres one that will dispute there findings, you get the results you want by who's paying for the study.
Why not have a presentation at one of the Town Hall Meeting Amp-Ohio and Ohio Citizen Action.
Hal, Andy how about it?
price tag on a nuclear plant is 10 billion plus without over runs
term, the incentive for these companies not screwing over their clients is that the clients are members of the amp ohio. also if they mess up they would go out of business-bechtel would ruin its reputation and go out of business.
amp ohio would not get investors and go under as well.
i remember the greenies holding up the n. st. clair st bridge over some bats years ago. that was back when we were a one bridge town
maddog
Just who in the city is an expert on the inner workings of a power plant? A retired teacher, a school bus driver ,retirees, housewives, people that work in the family business,a teacher? what has made these 7 people experts in anything relating to the city? How many were around when the city lost $6 million, betting interest was going up whenm it was vgoing down. Snow White and the seven dwarfs.
good luck.
city employee#3
there is stack sitting in Perry that is ready to go.... what is the cost of bringing that on line as an bridge to keep energy costs down? With a new administration on board in Washington they are waving the Green Flag high. How much money do you think they are willing to toss in to this rat hole?
I understand base power, I understand Ms McMahon's need to acquire more base load.
The energy field is changing rapidly and as one who vehemently protested against nuclear in the 70's I now see a cleaner path.
Has anyone on this blog been to the coal fields of Southern Ohio? Has anyone seen the effects of blasting off mountain tops. You would all be screaming if this was in your backyard! You can't see it so it doesn't exsist. Wake up! It's like the tent city people tossing their trash around. You don't see it but Fairport does, there fore nothing is done to solve the problem.
Has anyone been following the coal ash spill in Tenn? cost of cleaning up 3,000 acres of 1 foot deep coal ash? (1.7 million cubic yards) The man made dam broke in December.
$800 million dollars! just for clean up. All ground water is contaminated with arsnic and lead.
There have been close calls within the nuclear industry and Three mile island left their mark but we have come along way baby.
Oak Ridge, TN had all footers for a two stack nuclear plant poured and ready to go.... I know because my husband was hired on that project in 84' Stone and Webster Eng. laid everyone off and we ended up here. At midnight congress pulled the plug. It's buried under 10' of dirt ...... talk about shovel ready.
I am still not pro nuclear for a sustained length of time but Canada has managed their nuke industry successfully as I believe we can. Canada is dealing with the waste and not burying in the mtns. of British Columbia.
We need energy and there is no such thing as clean coal. Nuclear is much cleaner than coal on all levels not just CO 2.
MP
not Mary Poppins :-)
Can anyone explain to me why a city with less than 20,000 people need their own electric plant? As someone new in town 2 year, this electric company seems to consume all the thinking in town. The streets are a mess, downtown is empty but we have an Electric Co. I didn't move here for electricity.What do you do with the profits anyway.
Newbe
Cheap electricity is about the only thing this town can brag about. Even this plus, cannot make major retailers move into town. An example of this if Painesville Power is as much as 40% cheaper than First Energy. {Council President Hada} why would Super WalMart not move into Diamond Business Park but move within 200 feet of the Painesville line?
Someones not telling the whole story?
G.E.
Newbe, Painesville also sells it's power and supplies a good portion of the surrounding areas. You will see the Cities trucks outside the city as well. Besides that their is business here and to get better businesses here you need to be able to supply good reliable power to them. The current plant is old and needs improvements, but still does a decent job. I don't know the ultimate answer here but at least they are looking forward at options and if you do the research that I have after this came out, I found that the company building this big plant is the best in the nation. They are also international having buit the "Chunnel" and many other world renowned projects. JT
Again "There is NO such thing as clean coal" This project will be hindered at every chance and the 80 municipalities will pick up the cost for all te legal fees, not Amp-Ohio. If its such a great deal why does amp need us? Read into a "take or pay contract" before you tell everyone what a good deal it is.
Newbe, no need to do research. Almighty JT did it for you. Granted, he didn't look into the effects of coal on the environment. He didn't seem to consider all the unknowns about our contract and future costs, but hey! He is God so just take his word that this is the right option for Painesville. It obviously is good for JT. Have faith, newbe.
How come I cannot find anyone who got one of these letters, so I can read it ??????
Tell me where to send a copy and I will. City Manager mentioned it at the last council meeting also. I even believe she is putting up an answer on the city web. site.
I didn't get one of these flyers, probably because most in my neighborhood can't read English. But I have seen the flyer and know many who did receive it. It does exist, and it is an eye opener.
Where was this Amp-Ohio deal in the Comprehensive Plan for the City? An investment of this size should have been in there? Was there a story in the News-Herald about this? Was it mentioned in the Painesville Pride BEFORE it was voted on?
This is YOUR city folks get informed.
"Newbe, no need to do research. Almighty JT did it for you. Granted, he didn't look into the effects of coal on the environment. He didn't seem to consider all the unknowns about our contract and future costs, but hey! He is God so just take his word that this is the right option for Painesville. It obviously is good for JT. Have faith, newbe."
Try and re-read my post and you will see that I said no comments to elicit this response. I even said that "I don't know the ultimate answer here" and continued with more. I guess that it does not matter what I actually said, but my views are just that, mine. Besides the "clean coal" comment that I never mentioned in my post, was brought up by both Mccain and Obama during the election, so I guess that both sides of the coin are wrong as well. I do not doubt that coal has an impact on the environment, but so does your lawnmower, car and the computer that you so easily assume you anonymous identity. JT
Obama said "So, if somebody wants to build a coal plant, they can — it’s just that it will bankrupt them, because they are going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that’s being emitted." A direct quote from Obama.
JT, I guess I'm not the only one tired of your self righteous posts. You have your own site for this. go there and quit knocking us. You choose to censor what goes on your site so we can't respond there. yet you come here and dump on us.
I have to disagree here, JT. has a right to his opinion on this site. Part of the problem in Painesville is we sometimes never look at things other than from one viewpoint. If this town ever is to move forward ALL words must be heard freely [not in 3 minutes either] JT. is stating his views what are we going to do next? Tell him to leave if he doesnt like it?
Post direct facts to him.
Just try to get a post on his site.
Just try to get a post on his site
What is this idiot saying you can't post on JT site ?
Your post goes right on the site, when you post ?
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