"RUNNING ON EMPTY" jackson browne
Well we weren't running again, and far from empty. With 30 employee's on the power plant payroll, plant workers, not line workers.
So Painesville suffers it's second power outage in the last week what is that 30+ hours without power? Fine let's put the blame on First Energy.
Yet after last Sundays outage no one in Painesville thought of a warm start to a boiler to have it on line just encase this situation should arise again. But No.
See First Energy will solve their situation for two reasons, Whoever is in charge of transmission line likes his job, and outages like this are not good for First Energy's bottom line. The whole purpose of their electric business is to make a profit.
Now Painesville no one has to worry about losing anything, and as our former city manager once told me some months we make money some months we don't?
Some Painesville residents in this situation can jump in a car and within a short time be comfortable with relatives or friends. Many elderly as well as young Painesville residents are just stuck here. or go to the fire station, nice community center uh?
That plus the fact that the majority of Painesville resident's still believe their power is produced at our power plant. That was made aware to me by the conversations overheard at T & T Bakery this morning. Maybe they should read this site. The look on some faces when told no power is produced there. Priceless!
We were told last week that Painesville couldn't produce enough power to supply the city's needs. True, but you do produce enough to supply residents and small commercial businesses in town. So that resident's could heat their homes and feed their families.( we can cook our turkey's remember) Avery-Dennison, Airfoil off line until First Energy solves the problem..
We have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in the past couple of years on rewinding generators, new cooling towers, new chimney plus I believe making the boiler's conform to EPA regulations for what? It's like you having a 73' Buick, putting a new transmission, new tires, brakes and shocks just encase you need it and when you do there's no gas in the tank? What's the rhyme or reason for doing all this?
Many Painesville resident's live week to week around here. Think of that woman that works as a server at a restaurant she lost last Sunday and now this Saturday. Want to bet this past week doesn't blow a hole in her budget? This along with workers sent home from businesses all across Painesville. When the schools, city, or county tells you to stay home they get paid. That's not how it's done in the real world.
Now a city resident claims the city receives $4,000,000 a year just to keep the plant in it's present state? What fund does that check go into 732? Something called "Peak Shaving" I'm looking in to this one.
What we need is an independent study done on what Painesville should do with it's power plant and system. Councilman Fodor claims the worker's are needed at the plant, let's have someone prove or disprove that fact. Not a buddy of the councilman, or the city. The city manager should want this to set the city in the right direction.
On another note the CSX train is back on the siding near Heisley Park today, engines and all. What a surprise the railroad using their right-of-way. Those trains are like the Swallows of Capistrano? They just keep returning.
On a positive note it was a quiet Saturday on Cedarbrook. something's missing? Right, Atwell's gun range is closed cold dark but quiet.
posted by terminator1 @ 8:32 PM
29 Comments
29 Comments:
Well, for the second time in six days, I got a chance to know my boiler up close and personal. Had to drain it in order to keep the pipes from freezing which they did last Sunday. Yep, a wonderful way to spend the day.
It would seem to me that the members of Council should be looking at "operating" a power plant that does nothing a little more closely. This would seem to be a lot more important than a letter about immigration.
We are told it takes about 24 hours to get it up and operating. I guess I might wonder why it is down at all?
I would imagine that the two busiest times for power needs, and generation, would be in the summer and winter. Summer due to people using air conditioning. Winter because of the increased need for heat. Would it not make sense that, if you need to do maintenance on a boiler it would be prudent to do it in the spring or fall?
How can 30 people be "needed" in a plant that is not producing anything?? Sure would not be that way in private industry.
Maybe the best way to use the approx $30M dollars in the electric fund (that can't be touched for anything else) would be to buy a generator for each home in the City. At least that way the City would actually have a back up plan that works.
Let's see where Council goes with this and what stories we hear about how valuable the plant/museum is.
The worst part about the power outage, is not knowing how long the outage will be. Why doesn't the city send out an Robo Call to the customers and keep them informed?
9:17 your plan for every home to have a back-up generator makes sense. Give something to the residents before AMP-OHIO sucks the account dry. Which they will.
You have council people who have never worked in the private sector that's all you need to know to understand the 30 employee's.
10:16 I wondered about that also. maybe a yellow Robo call if say a car takes out a utility pole, and a red for what happened this past week. With an outage like yesterday it came down to the best guess. I was told 3:00 pm than 6:00pm and it's seems we could have been on line earlier but there were "issues" at Painesville's power plant?
I'm still amazed at how many people believe this plant produces power? Maybe we should paint a large mural in blue with dolphins on it to get the message out?
As a council person you have to wonder if $6000.00 a year is worth everybody calling you and complaining? But than you are the only people that can correct this.
10:16: The city did have Robo Calls during both power outages to update the citizens. You must not be on their list of numbers to call. I think they said during the council meeting that you can apply online or call the police department to get on the list. I believe they said they were leaving that to the police department since there was personal information being given out. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I think that is what I heard. I thought the info they gave out was very good and timely, but I would have liked to have heard a phone number given for anyone who needed assistance getting to the warming stations, or whatever might have been their need. People are in a no-power situation, so giving them the non-emergency police number, or whatever number is appropriate would probably be a good thing.
Also, Mrs. DiNallo suggested that when people call City Hall during power outages that instead of referring them to the electric plant, that they have the latest update right there on that main number. I think that was a very good suggestion, but I would take it further. In an emergency like that instead of either having the electric employees answering the many incoming calls like they were doing at the beginning, only to have then no response at the electric departments number as the emergency went on, they should also have the latest update on that line when people call in. Let it play the message of the latest Robo Call update. If those two things are added to what we already have, then everyone should have the ability to be updated during such an emergency.
12:37 I think the person wants an accurate time when power will return. As we learn of all the complications I guess an ballpark figure is what is needed.
This is 12:27 adding to my post. I didn't mean to suggest that the employees shouldn't answer all the phone calls in the beginning of an emergency like that because, of course, they need to. For one thing, people need to know that the city is aware of the problem. But after there is an available recording, they could switch to that. It would be nice if they also had, in addition to the "press any button to repeat this info," a chance for people to press "0" if they felt they still needed to talk to an employee. Most people would be satisfied with the recording, but if someone did have information to give or a question, then they could still access someone to talk to, and the staff wouldn't be under the siege that it is at the beginning of such an emergency. With all of those additions, the only people that would still be uninformed would be the ones with wireless phones, and no cell phones and/or land lines, and there isn't anything the city can do about that.
Very handy device to have is a jumper box that also lets you charge via USB. With that you can keep your cell phone charged. The fire department, police department, sheriff & Downtown Painesville organization were all posting regular updates on Facebook. Unfortunately they went like this: "Power will be restored in one to two hours." Later - "Power will be back by 1pm" Then "4pm" Then "6:30 pm" Then "First Energy is having more problems, power should be back between 7pm and 9pm." At that point, we drove to the Home Depot in Cleveland Heights and bought a generator. It would be nice to think that something like this will never happen again, but I'm afraid we haven't seen the end of it.
Several residents received that type of call, several times throughout the day. If you don't have a landline, your phone goes through your computer or you do not have a smart phone then you should use your cell number. No cell either? What did you do in the good old days for updated communication? Find a family member or neighbor then.
Interesting. I know several who work at the power plant. There were no "issues". Power was restored to customers within ten minutes of its being restored to the substation. It seems the only people who give you any information on the city have an axe to grind. Oh... it also may come as a surprise to people complaining that the power plant stopped answering calls during the outage, but telephones run on electricity, and even battery backed systems die after all the calls that come in. The information regarding restoration times is what came from first energy.
Its kinda funny how you complain that the plant is not operating, and not all that long ago, you complained when it was running. Although, to your credit the same theme remains..." Get those thirty people on the unemployment line."
First Energy does not care if You have power I buy power from them. Why don't You? They take care of Me first!
10:33 O.K.
2:16/ 4:15/ 5:44 good information
9:17 Sunday 03/09/14 News-Herald article "LIGHTS OUT AGAIN"
Mark Durbin spokesman for First Energy At 8:00 pm Durbin said remaining customers had their power back on at 7:30 pm. ISSUES at the Painesville Power Plant also led to time being tacked on to the restoration project.
Restoration Project play with words on our Museum?
Look no one wants to see anyone laid-off but what exactly is the purpose of the power plant? Ask your friends exactly how much power they have generated in the past two years? Can't they produce it cheaper than we can buy it?
Painesville residents should expect value or are we running a welfare state.
Our electric department has more than an idle plant to answer for;
2 million lost at AMPGS
literally being raped by the PSEC deal
Another AMP-OHIO deal to start next January.
It doesn't a appear to be a successful operation presently.
Be upset all you want with me but Painesville residents deserve better.
9;17 on 3/9, this is 9:17 on 3/8.
Term is not the person who brought up the power plant, I am. I NEVER complained about the plant actually producing power. That is what we have it for. I am complaining that it is not available, even to us, at a time of emergency.
If we can't put it to use, why do we keep it?
There were no "issues" at the plant? Of course not, it doesn't do anything. How can you have an issue when nothing is occurring.
Time to actually think instead of listening to people who have a vested interest in keeping the plant open. Ask you friends avery simple question. How many days did the plant produce power in 2013? How about 2012? 2011?
If the answer isn't at least 50% of the time, why are we keeping the doors open? Those employees could be moved or retired or whatever but at least we aren't paying them to maintain boilers that are never in use.
The Heisley Park train issue was in the News-Herald today. Wonder if it will sink in to anyone there that the railroad holds all the cards? Sink in might just happen there?
The analysis is really quite simple, as you drive down Richmond St if you don't see smoke from the chimney, water from the cooling towers, coal out back, the plant ain't running. Been that was for awhile. Another simple truth, a study was done, if you laid off all the employees and bought off the grid, whats the cost? City saves over a million a year. Employee cost per megawatt, megawatt cost off the grid = it is that much cheaper to buy than generate. The city is not run as a profit loss center, its public sector and no one wants to be the hard guy and say time to go away.
Power cost adjustment. Years ago when the city had to purchase power off the grid to supplement the plant's generation, it was at a higher cost. So, power cost adjustment was invented as a way to recover the increased cost. Public sector answer to never losing money and not subject to PUCO, can charge what they want. When things reversed and the grid was much cheaper than generation, the plant decreased generation and bought from the grid. Simple. But what about power cost adjustment? Just keep in place and no one the wiser, so to speak. So the funny part is, all the power is bought from the grid, you pay that and the power cost adjustment is a bonus payment to the city. Just trying to help with questions to be asked. Then, where does the math come from on how to charge the power cost adjustment? Google Houdini.
Lastly, I believe the city is the only muni plant in Ohio to staff all year long. Most keep some maintenance folks and lay off operations and just fire up for peak useage, ie., summer. This keeps the boiler licenses in place also.
Suggestion, look east to Eastlake and their plant and I found them very helpful. Going through downsizing issues, but I was able to wrangle a tour and ask a lot of questions, very informative and frankly fun. But, you have to know the questions to ask and recognize spin when you see it. Knowledge is wonderful.
9:57 You seem well informed. Is it "spin" that tells us the plant must be manned by 30 people?
Can Painesville covert to cleaner natural gas for those times when there are spikes in usage?
Interesting your tour of Eastlake hear anything what happened with the joint effort by First Energy and AMP-OHIO converting that plant to gas? Seems that project fell through.
Seems the grey and blue mixed train has been replaced by an orange black and gold one with tank cars up the kazoo!
9:57: I have always thought that the power factor was just one big cheat and lie, which I think many other Painesville residents have also. Thank you so much for the information, as it seems to be true. This information makes me sick, and I want my money back, you Painesville City thieves.
absolutely, there is no need for generation folks, its about distribution as the good citizens have just found out. Natural gas conversion is totally out of the question. You would need an entirely new plant, thus amp-ohio contract. Old coal fired plants are grand-fathered with a license to pollute, so to speak, not held to current EPA standards. Any serious upgrades to the plant would kick in the new standards. Eastlake plant was facing the same issues, couldn't upgrade so they went for furloughs in supervision and operations. That plant is facing some violations, as is Painesville. There is the Ohio EPA and the US EPA out of Chicago to deal with.
This is what I learned, if you upgrade your plant over a certain % of equipment performance, new standards kick in also. Violate those, get the check book out.
Some very serious decisions need to be made, keep generation for peak? This plant looks to be a superfund cite also. It is an old dinosaur with many liabilities, employees just sitting doing nothing but painting does need to be addressed, but deeper questions I think have been discussed with thoughts to the future. Again, AMO-Ohio contract, my experience in the industry is the city was trying to address future energy issues with this mind. Chrystal ball time but should not fault anyone for trying.
My experience tells me distribution should be the emphasis, chuck the plant and upgrade. JED Agreement, Painesville was to build a new substation to service Concord, most importantly the hospital. Someone needs to bring the city folks up to speed where that multi-million dollar project is. Good income for the city.
Generation is done, move on and yes, it will be partner agreements, in my humble opinion. Funny, would love to see the hospital's power cost adjustment. Comments were good and very pleased to see the residents taking an active interest in their community, not antagonistic in approach, but, please be forthright.. Council is clueless, don't look there, but turn to the generation and distribution folks for answers to your questions.
Just one question 1:42 you mentioned the JEDD. What will be the cost of running power to Concord and how many years will it take for Painesville to recoup their investment?
That multi-million dollar project is good income for Painesville that we can't use.
Find out anything about the 4 million Painesville receives for guys playing cards, cutting shrubs and painting?
the trains were there for more than 50 years that I am old those houses around 10 years (?) I think those people should shut up and stop complaining and yes I can relate to the noise I bought a house in Geneva with tracks about 25 feet from the side of my home, guess what? the trains were there first, its not rocket science those residents shouldn't have bought a house there if they can't take the noise, ditto for atwells although they can act in good faith and install a noise dampening system
The power plant will never be fired up as it does not generate enough power for all it's needs. The plant at full power only generates power for 50 percent of those on line,they would still have topurchase 15 Meg's to have what they needed. It has been looked at and it is cheaper to do what we are doing . I spoke to several city persons together this info
2:23 Still working on it. I have found out the $4,000,000 for peak shaving was a statement by our present city manager.
3:00 I will support the Heisley residents against the developer and the city. But they better face it the railroads hold all the cards.
4:45 You know let's look at it in a different light? What if our old plant had produced the 10MW we purchased from Prairie State and the administration had not involved itself with AMPGS and PSEC. Painesville presently would have saved millions. The workers at the power plant would have a purpose. I can't believe their presently happy with the situation. Wonder what they will think the next time they run into Joe Hada or Rita McMahon, putting them out of work and city residents paying double for the power that old plant produced?
If you think about it there in the same boat as the residents? Poor executive actions.
When I toured the Electric Plant last June [the 125 year anniversary] I was told that we have 3 Boilers and 4 turbine generators and a total capacity of 40 plus Megawatts. Now we are told that our capacity is 15 MW. What happened?
Well, for anyone who was wondering how our electric department got 30M, at least we now know the answer to that now. It was the city cheating each and every citizen out of a power cost adjustment that we didn't owe. I'd like to know just who was in on the decision to cheat the residents like that, and who all knew about it? One word: INVESTIGATIONS!
I have a question, please. Who says the electric department money can't be used anywhere else? Is it the city charter, or is it a state rule?
CLOSE THE PLANT!!! WAKE UP THEY ARE PLAYING CARDS!! FODOR!!!WHY??
With this weather system moving in I wonder if anyone suggested putting the power plant on warm-up and calling First Energy to have a crew stationed at Hine & Sanford St.?
October 2012, the City was warned of a bad weather front moving up the East coast. The Administration and Electric Division decided to put Distribution personal on standby and the Electric Plant warmed up the boilers with natural gas and their turbine generators with steam.
The bad weather front turned out to be Hurricane Sandy!
If you go back to the November 2012 City Council Meeting minutes you can review the praise heaped on our Electric Division from Council members Fodor, Deleone and Dinallo. We were even told how lucky we are to have our own Electric Plant!
Now what has happened? Why have we stopped being proactive?
I don't blame the 30 workers in that Plant. Term nailed the cause "poor executive action".
2:13 You have a good memory. That said what happened to being lucky?
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