"A PAINESVILLE CHRISTMAS STORY"
OR "YOU REALLY GOT A HOLD ON ME"
A fairy tale in Painesville.
Once in the kingdom of Painesville the Queen of the Kingdom realized that they weren't going to have enough Jack-in-the boxes for the children for the coming Christmases. Jack-in-the boxes are "Base" toy for little boys and girls.
She had a good friend in Santa Claus who always helped her find toys for the children in a pinch. She called him and he reportedly told her we will need to build a new Jack-in-the-box factory and he was planning to get other kingdoms such as Oberlin, Yellow Springs even far off kingdoms like Martinsville to join in the project.
Some of the Subjects of the kingdom along with afew on her council questioned the wisdom of building a new Jack-in-the-box factory because the great rulers questioned construction such as these, along with the fact children were finding toys such as the Jack-in-the-boxes along with Tops being well "passe." They want new toys that were easier to play with wouldn't scratch furniture, or cut little hands also they wanted more sophisticated toys.
Everytime the Court Jester would ask the Queen if she was obligated,, or could get out of the agreement with Santa she assured him that they could until the plant started to be built. The Jester believed the Queen, but who but Sir Bernie Makemeanoffer could make a deal like this?
After afew years Santa who had not even broke ground on the new plant, when it became apparent that it wasn't possible to construct the plant at a reasonable cost. He decided to bring the kingdoms together to vote to stop construction, And everyone lived happily ever after.....
Not quite. Santa Claus had made an investment of over 200 million jars of honey [This is the currency in the Kingdom, remember]and the Kingdom of Painesville's share was 3.3 million jars of honey that he wanted them to pay for his investment.
Now as we all know Santa is a very fair person and he told the Queen if she stayed in the project and maybe built a factory with new toys such as Nintendo W11 he would just roll that into the costs of the new toys when the Queen purchased them.
Santa learned about business dealing like this from his Godfather Vito Corleone.
Everyone including Tom Hagan thought it was a fair deal you just couldn't refuse.
Now this was a cute fairy tale but look at this site.
http://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/article.cfm?ID=21576
Merry Christmas fellow Subjects, and to all a good night!
posted by terminator1 @ 7:50 PM
66 Comments
66 Comments:
Painesville better start umporting bees, it looks like were going to need them. Watch the power factor on you utility bills, Merry Christmas, right.
Truth or Dare do we owe Amp over 3miilion dollars or not? Whats with the fairy tale?
What other new plant powered by hamsters maybe.
I don't know why would Martinsville but not Painesville? Both voted to suspend construction. I believe it is time for someone else to ask. I don't feel I receive all that honest of an answer. No we don't owe AMP 3 million if we continue with the new project, but we do if someone said stop the nonsense.
I would thought the administration would hve come forward if there was a question of money being owed.
Until they answer this is just a fairy tale that could turn into a nightmare.
Iguess we know now why there not talking. How could so few people reach the conclusion to invest in something like this? This should have been made by the people of Painesville to decide to get in this agreement or not.What do these experts know about power plants?
Nelson St.
*AMP-Ohio Response to Issues Raised by Ohio Citizens Action Regarding the AMPGS*
This is found at this link
http://www.piquaoh.org/feature_ampgs_overview.htm
"Participating communities locked into a 50-year contract"
AMP-Ohio has executed valid contracts with 81 member communities to purchase power from the facility for a 50 year time frame. These contracts are necessary on a project of this size and scope and support the affordable financing of the project. ...
"Communities have signed take-or-pay contracts"
All 81 participating communities executed take-or-pay contracts for this project. This mechanism is not an AMP-Ohio creation, but a standard contractual mechanism for these types of projects. These contracts allow AMP-Ohio to secure the most affordable financing for the project. In essence, the contract mechanism makes the AMPGS project similar to any significant building project that a municipality might take on. ...
________
Take or pay contracts?
Agreement between a buyer and seller in which the buyer will still pay some amount even if the product or service is not provided.
_________
Is Painesville an actual "member" of AMP Ohio? Yes
See the list of members at this link.
http://amppartners.org/members/member-list/
Thank goodness they finally woke up and got us out of that deal. GEEEEZ!!! Investing in coal for a 50 year commitment, when technology is changing by the minute. Hope we are not left holding one very expensive bag.
Take- or- Pay? Take-and-get- Screwed!
Joe I think the turkeys you were worried about being able to cook in in few years on Thanksgiving, were the citizens of Painesville.
So to get out og this it will cost us $3,380,000 great job! Again.
Can't wait for the electric bill.
A look back at Nov. 2007 council meeting:
Mr. Angelo Cimaglio, 477 Owego Street, stated at the last Council Meeting, Council voted on the AMPGS Plant in Meigs County and it was stated that residents were well informed of this.
There was nothing ever mentioned in the Painesville Pride, Public Power News or the New-Herald or other media.
Mr. Horvath stated it was announced at a City Council meeting and there was a Work Session dedicated to nothing but this topic.
Mr. Cimaglio asked how a $37 million project was never mentioned.
He asked if the City owned the building or the land? What exactly does the City own?
If the City does not make money does the City have to pay more because of the “take or pay” contract?
This “take of pay” contract is a bad idea. The City is betting against Wall Street experts. Only way be Charter we can charge is going into the power factor. If the plant produces peak power do we get any money because we are part-owner.
He finds it hard to believe the City has the lowest rates in the area by 40% cheaper. Why wouldn’t Walmart move into the City for cheaper electric rates.
Mr. Cimaglio stated things have to be addressed and residents have to know what is going on. Please let people know what is happening and think before doing this.
Ms. McMahon stated the City is not paying over and above for the power. The cost of power will cover everything, including the debt service on the facility.
No up front or out of pocket cost to the City.
Only when the City buys power is it paying into the project. Ms. McMahon stated the cost of power is how we pay for the plant over 40 years. It will spend $37 million over the next 40 years. The City now spends $12 million a year for power for this community. The City would be committed to pay for 40 years the $37 million. The City is getting electricity for that. The City will have an owners share and will have a say with what happens at the plant. Ownership does not cost anything.
Mr. Cimaglio asked why the City would enter into a “take or pay” contract?
Ms. McMahon explained it is a financing mechanism.
Mr. Cimaglio asked if the rates will increase?
Ms. McMahon explained based on the contract. Ms. McMahon explained she would be happy to sit down and explain this to Mr. Cimaglio.
http://www.painesville.com/vertical/Sites/%7B66FDE066-2B9A-43E2-8DFC-2129003D50A7%7D/uploads/%7BA8EF914B-9104-40F9-BAEC-5B9198E8C14C%7D.PDF
I along with a lot of people didn't think this deal made sense then and still don't. During the previous council meeting when the voting took place. attended by people who knew better, [no myself but people who had studied this contract] were each given 3 minutes and then told "times up". Councilman Hada and the President of AMP-OHIO addressed the council and people in attendance for almost an hour. Then we were told we could not offer a question or make a comment on something that was said during their presentation. The person who was there from Ohio Citizens Action looked over to me and said "well your city now owns a failed power plant'"
Do we need electric power? Yes, was this the best way to get it? I didn't believe in a "take or pay" contract, period. Either did the peole on Wall St.]
As you can see we now owe 3 million dollars for what?
I can only hope that this figure is wrong and the city manager was telling me the truth when she stated we could get out of this with another vote, and we owed nothing.
So what? Now your the expert in power plants? There no way the city or you could have seen this coming. You just hit the right lottery number, big deal.
Joe Hada just may not be an expert on everything. Why he thought this take and pay scheme was a good idea only he knows. The point is when it comes to issues about finance he just always seems to be on the wrong side. Advise to the new council ask Joe how he will be voting on any money issue and then vote the opposite way. This seems to work for Andrew Flock he's seems to look like the only one up there with even a clue.
Wonder if they will reward him by making him council president?
Joe would love that!
KAREN
hey 9:08...you don't have to be an expert on power plants to know when a financial deal is bad. I just figure that when anyone is talking long-term commitments and LARGE sums of money (millions) that do not belong to them, then it should be much more closely examined. Would it be asking too much for the present council to make a stronger effort to educate the voters? Much as I love the fairy tales Term posts...they are too close to the truth in that Painesville is run like a private fiefdom. And if Term just got lucky this time, what do you call all the other times he has presented facts and situations that panned out the way he said it would? He can pick my lottery numbers any time.
4:42 Thanks for the compliment, but it has nothing to do with luck or the lottery. You read about it from both sides and you don't believe everything your told. I can only hope that fairy tale is just that and doesn't turn into a nightmare. The answer I expect to here is that as long as we stay in the project that money owed will just be rolled over into the "new" plant.
Thats not much of a choose from, is it? Pay me over 3 mill, to get out or go along with what the next plans is? What if that doesn't work? What will we owe 6 mill.
People in this town should demand answers, I have sent the News-Hearld the link to the Martinsville Bulletin as of now I haven't heard back.
They probably don't want to send out anymore misinformation to be printed? Right John?
I have looked back at the minutes of the council meetings for the past year or two and have found that not only Angelo Cimaglio has asked question about the citys role in the Amp plant but so has Sandy Miller, these two have both tried to prevent the city from getting into this deal. What was there reward? Misinformation and lies!
11-02-09
11-16-09 ** CM please explain
11-17-08
11-03-08
02-19-08
Nobody better say "no one saw this coming"
They just didn't want to hear.
I will stay more informed in the future before this council totally runs the city into the ground.
Nelson St. Lady
Yes, and wasn't that meeting the one where Hada lectured us all as if we were stupid children, and he was the only one who knew better? If they would have listened to the "commoners", who tried so hard to tell them they were wrong, they would have heard what Cimaglio and others were saying.
Hada thinks he's brilliant, and he's addicted to the power, just like Horvath was. It's a dangerous combination. They shut everyone up and went right ahead with a 50-year COAL plan.
Isn't it Ohio State that has the new wind-power machine that sits right on top of roofs? It's much, much smaller than the windmills, and is many times more efficient? Whichever Ohio college it is, they are going for a patent, and it looks like a fantastic invention.
Technology truly IS changing by the minute.
We need people on council who aren't in it for the glory. We need smart people who have good common sense, are willing to learn and listen and who aren't on an ego or power trip.
We have a few people in this city who fit that description and who are also very, very knowledgeable about all workings of this city. John Murphy is one of those people. We really needed him to get on council two years ago. Sadly that election was stolen from him. And now the second election has been stolen from him. If he had lost fair and square, that would be another story, but he did not, and this city desperately needs him.
The current council still sees the citizens as the opposition and as people who just aren't smart enough to know what is good for them or their city.
This Take and Pay policy just never made sense to me. Now I know why at this rate amp will own our power plant in a few years. Shame on the city for not informing the people of what they were in the process of doing. Seems like spending 37 million dollars should have received the same press as Painesvilles downtown idea. I think everyone should question the power factor on there utility bills now.
Joe Hada nice guy but, what an attitude, he brought his know it all attitude from the classroom into the council chamber. He has servied the city for a long time and now believes he is the expert on running Painesville. You can bet he will say this is just a minor setback and even now believes the city did the right thing. What else can he say?
I screwed up again?
Hada love its a Painesville thing!
The question is was Painesville's leadership;
"Fiscally Responsible"
This is the answer I'm looking for.
So you think the city screwed up?
What's Cimaglio's and Millers, along with Flocks idea on how to provide the energy we need in the future.
These three have no clue and just complain about everything.
We will still have a project that is on course within afew years then they will find something else thats wrong herein town.
Chaterlady, Karen , Mary Poppins are all the same.
Term is like the who in whosville
hes the pain in Painesville.
For 11:08 a.m.: The answer to our power needs in the future do not have to be solved by getting into a bad deal. I think that is the only point people are making who are against this 50-year coal deal.
I don't think anyone is saying that we will not possibly need more power and, therefore, will not have to look elsewhere. That does not justify getting into a bad coal deal for decades to come.
Technology is changing very quickly, and surely there will be a better solution down the road than this one.
You said yourself that in a couple of years, a new plan will probably be in place. That's the point. We need a better plan.
I for one am thankful that the people you mentioned in your post are watching out for this city. (I don't mean Flock -- I mean the citizens.)
I suppose it would be easy to look at them and think they are just out to make trouble, but if you look at their history, you can see how they have had our backs.
For 11:08 a.m.: Did you happen to see The News-Herald front-page article on Dec. 17, 2009, 'Greening' generates energy solutions? It's a fantastic article on alternate energy sources coming to and/or hoping to come to our area. Magnificent things are happening as it concerns our energy needs. Honestly, a 50-year COAL obligation is not the answer for the year 2009.
Hey Anon, 12/20/09 11:08 AM:
The Cap and Trade is a whisper away from becoming a very terrible reality for all: so, your belief in "We still have a project that is on course within a few years" will never come to fruition! The Cap and Trade is the chess game of many who hold the greatest Queen/King; that being millions and billions of dollars to control the energy markets. Do you actually think that the City of "P" has that type of money to become a higher stake holder than them? Everyone can speak of green in relationship to hydro, wind, natural gas etc. It will be those very wealthy folks that will dictate to every private and public energy producer - the parameters of any future expansion to gain the energy sources that may be needed. When they dictate, it will be their way and no other way. Do not doubt the rights of those that now question and do not believe Painesville's direction with Amp's projects are the correct way or the absolute way to spend our tax money wisely. When this Cap and Trade (read about it) hits the fan - all of us and our comments will mean nothing at all. At least we have people that speak-up and fight the fight. Hopefully all of these folks will continue to speak-up and gather others to fight what will become another take-over and negation of the rights of free speech and the rights of business to pursue what actually needs to be accomplished. Cap and Trade is already being promoted in China by a man (go find his name) that has promoted this issue. His binocular sight is to control the world. When you want to control the world - you control all the avenues of Energy. When Energy is tightly controlled,all advancements are held at bay at his Whim.
Global Warming is now the cover-up to our Energy Issues and is being used by this man to promote a total take-over. If you doubt these statements, please google and read. The reports by every scientific expert around the world has not reported any issues with global warming - other than the normal processes of this earth. This man has taken these reports, deleted line items to suit his purpose and has passed these aborted reports on to the Global Warming symposiums. This man has been heavily involved with the United Nations for way too many years. He is now out on his own and using his billions to accomplish a collateral lie for his "Conservation Bank" that will definitely take-over the energy of every country in this world.
Read and watch Governor Ventura (Minnesota). His statements and his investigative team regarding this issue and many others. He knows how to bring all out in the open and his investigation is awesome.
We are just a little tiny City and we will be the first to be eaten and disolved.
Painesville CM and others, you are out of your league and you best get your stuff together to fight the fight. After all, it is OUR TAX Money that you hold in trust and spend. Stop acting like we have no say over our monies and you are the only controlling factors. You are not the controller, we are. Remember 2005 and your CM ridiculous controlling Charter Amendment - Ho HO.
Charterlady
Charterlady, We can only hope that the Cap and Trade, is only a bad idea by someone wanting to make money on the trading of energy.
Funny you mentioned China, I've always viewed them as backward.
Yahoo or Goggle "Green City in China" and look what the idea they have there to become cities of the future. Not Painesville, but this country should be making plans such as these. The energy lobbies, coal, oil, electric utilities, have no need to progress into this new century. They like the healthcare lobby like things just as they are.
Wow, Charterlady. It will take me a bit of time to absorb all you said. Meanwhile, I think the most important thing to know about the global warming argument, for me anyway, are little tidbits of information (actually not so little) like the polar bears are drowning (!), and Greenland is melting (!).
Also, by the time 50 years has passed, I'm pretty sure every building will be self-sufficient as far as their energy needs are concerned. The technology should be so advanced by then that the common man will be able to own this technology, too.
That's not to say we don't have many concerns until such time -- just showing how scary investing in a 50-year coal deal is to me.
All of you need to get over yourselves. None of you had one bit to do with the AMP decision.
When it was approved it made perfect fiscal sense for the future of this city. When Obama came into the picture and decided he was going to attack coal and everyone using it would "go broke" the cost of the deal went up significantly and no longer made fiscal sense so was voted down.
Some of you claim our city leaders think they are smarter than you are, but remember, there was 82 other city leaders and councils that thought they were smarter than you also. What makes the regulars on this blog think they know more than 82 city leaders and councils?
I still am amazed that people knowingly voted for Obama when he came right out and said he was going to bankrupt coal users, LOL, 80% of the people in this country are coal users!
Name ONE new regulation on coal since Obama has become President. I'll save you the time, NONE. Coal has been on this death march since the 70's.
Get ready, this administration will cost all of us dearly, it is starting!
"EPA's carbon dioxide emissions ruling could raise energy costs
The latest step by the government to regulate carbon dioxide emissions saddles industry with uncertainty and potentially higher costs, industry groups said Monday after the Environmental Protection Agency declared carbon dioxide a health hazard.
The EPA's decision paves the way for new regulations on carbon dioxide emissions from power plants and factories even if Congress doesn't pass legislation to do so.
If nothing changes, the EPA, sometime next year, could require big carbon emitters – such as power plants, steel mills, cement makers and others – to put the best available equipment on new and modified plants to curb emissions.
Industry groups say EPA regulation would eventually drive up energy costs, lead to lost jobs and delays in project permits and construction. More immediately, "This adds more uncertainty and could impact how companies make decisions," says Keith McCoy, vice president of the National Association of Manufacturers.
USA Today
Posted on Tuesday, December 08 @ 05:37:03 PST by Leanan "
For 3:04: Didn't your father every tell you that just because your friends were jumping off a bridge, it didn't mean that you had to also?
Just because 82 city leaders thought it was a good idea, doesn't mean that it ever was. That just verifies the kind of thinking that got us into this mess.
Some of the citizens in Painesville knew better. That's just a fact.
A 50-year coal deal in 2009 was just dumb.
I believe AMP-OHIO did a great salesmanship job on 81 communities.
Sometimes you just have to read between the lines? The city manager stated in that newspaper article where she didn't think the Meigs County was "fiscally responsible." [paraphrasing]
In almost the same sentence she said Painesville will need additional power in 2012? Not 2013,2020, 2025, 2012 why? Has she been informed by the EPA that the Muni Plant must be off line in that year? Just a guess, but why give a year when she could just as easily said "in the future Painesville will need more power."
Still not a reason for this failed deal.
Just spent time checking the different sites. Yes we owe the money and the city manager was already informed. So what is she doing buying time?
The city would get a 0% loan and pay it back over 15 years using the power factor to get the funds. This will work if no one asks.
Mr.Rellik
Mr.Rellik,
Where is the proof? Does a website (or websites) actually say that we owe AMP-Ohio money?
Please -- details, details.
In answer to December 24, 2009 9:28 PM
Here is a very interesting document called:
[b]Review and Quantification of Certain Financial Risks of American Municipal Power-- Ohio AMP Generation Station[/b]
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:FcinskNAC5UJ:www.ohiocitizen.org/campaigns/coal/AMP%2520Ohio_ScottBalice_020108_FINAL_BW.pdf+Review+and+Quantification+of+American+Municipal+Power+-+AMP+Generation+Station+as+of+February+1,+2008&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AHIEtbRcGJYIKMA14yhHwu7DNXyGsK6Z7g
Power Sales Contract: All costs of the project flow-through to the participants, whether or not AMPGS is completed or operational. Each participant is required to pass-through those costs to its customers.
Each participant’s share may be increased by up to 25% in the event of a default by another participant. As a result, each
participant assumes, at least in part, the credit/performance risk of each other participant.
Pass-Through of All Costs: AMP-Ohio proposes to finance the costs of the project based upon revenues received from power sales contracts with the participants. Pursuant to the power sales contract, each participant is obligated to pay its pro rata share of costs of the project, including capital costs and operating and maintenance costs, as a pass-through from AMP-Ohio, as well as additional amounts to fund certain reserves. See Section 5(A) of the draft Power Sales Contract.
Performance Risk. The power sales contract is structured as a take-or-pay contract. As a result, each participant is obligated to make such payments, whether or not the project ever produces electricity or the participant requires such electricity. See Section 5(I) of the draft Power Sales Contract.
25% Step-Up Provision. In addition, in the event of a default by one of the participants, each participant’s share will be increased up to 25% of its original commitment, in which case such participant will be required to purchase such additional power and pay the proportionate amount of the defaulting participant’s obligations under the contract. See Section 18(B)(ii) of the draft.
Power Sales Contract: As a result, the obligation of a participant under the contract could be increased by 25% as a result of credit or operational issues with another participant, over which the participant has no control. In the event that the plant is not completed or is not operational, the participant could be required to bear that additional cost without the receipt of, or rights to, additional power.
It is unclear how this 25% step up provision would work in the event that there is a large exodus of participants. It should be recognized that systemic changes in Ohio may affect the ability of participants to meet payment obligations overall. Such event risk would need to be considered.
Pass-Through to Consumers: Finally, each participant is required to pass its costs under the power sales contract through to its customers. Section 17(A) of the draft Power Sales Contract requires each participant to maintain rates for electric power and energy to its consumers in an amount sufficient, together with other available funds, to meet its obligations to AMP-Ohio
under the contract. As a result of the pass-through of the costs of AMP-Ohio to each participant, each participant (and its customers), not AMP-Ohio, bears the full risk of increased costs in construction, financing and operation of the proposed plant. In addition, through the step-up provision, each participant (not AMP-Ohio) bears the credit risk of the other articipants.
There is much more at link. (above)
In answer to December 24, 2009 9:28 PM -- Part 2
http://www.painesville.com/vertical/Sites/%7B66FDE066-2B9A-43E2-8DFC-2129003D50A7%7D/uploads/%7B529A79B8-A7F0-4947-9E49-BC4015C51560%7D.PDF
[b]COUNCIL MEETING – OCTOBER 15, 2007[/b]
(pg. 4)
Ms. McMahon explained AMP-Ohio is developing a new 1000 MW coal burning baseload generating plant in southern Ohio. The City has been a participant in the developmental phase of this project since 2003. At that time, the City indicated it would be interested purchasing 13,000 kilowatts or 13 MW of the plant’s output. AMP-Ohio has proceeded through the developmental stage and is beginning the permitting process. The plant is proposed to be constructed in Meigs County, Ohio along the Ohio River. The project is proposed to be constructed by AMP-Ohio and paid by participant member communities. Each participating member will be responsible for the construction, operations, and power costs for their share of the project. The City’s share is based on the number of kilowatts that we agree to purchase. If the City proceeds with the project, it will be committing to purchase 13,000 kW of electricity for the next 40-years. Estimated construction cost per kW is $2,912...
...The City will own 13 MW of power if invested in the AMPGS project. The City will have a say and a vote pertaining to the plant. Part of the legislation designates Ms. McMahon and representatives of the Electric Power Division to be at the meetings and to vote. As an ownership interest the City must look at if this project is an acceptable measure of risk. The City has paid $65,000 to AMP-Ohio to help pay for the development stage and development costs. This will be rolled into the debt financing. Large sums of money are not being paid up front. The City also does the same thing with notes and bonds when financing construction projects such as Colonial Drive. Money is borrowed and at the end of the project is rolled into a bond to get permanent financing for 20 years to pay off the road. This is true for investments to be made at the Water Treatment Plant because repairs are needed to keep the plant operational.
Ms. McMahon stated in Council packets was a memo that included risk versus cost analysis for hydro, wind and the coal-burning plant. The City held a Special Council Meeting Work Session, which was a public meeting, on September 10 to discuss the AMPGS Project and there were no residents who attended. These meetings were advertised on Channel 12, the website, newspapers and through Council Meetings and no one showed up.
Ms. McMahon introduced Mr. Marc Gerken, President/CEO of AMP-Ohio, and stated that this item of legislation is on third reading. If in March when the price of the project is available, the City does have the option to pull out of the project. AMP-Ohio does need to know now in order to get their financing in place for the project. The City needs to be part of those discussions. The agreement allows the City in March to pull out of the project. The City can revisit this when feasibility analysis is run again and costs are available.
Mr. Flock asked if the EPA closed the plant before generating any power would the 93 members be liable?
Mr. Gerken replied that yes they would be liable but he does not see that happening.
(pg. 7)
Mr. Flock asked what a take and pay contract was?
Mr. Gerken replied a take and pay contract is when you agree to take the energy output that is generated and regardless of what happens to the project you will be pay for it.
(pg.8)
Ms. Becks asked if the project goes forward pay for development stage if the City decides not to pursue the project it would get the $65,000 back. The City paid $12,000 for the hydro project and could also get its money back if it chooses to pull out of the project during the development stage.
(no answer provided in transcript)
_____________________________________________________
I hope this gets you started. All info found by searching with google.
Thanks for posting this information.
Its so easy for the average citizen in the internet age to retreive information.
Now that we're into goggling? Goggle Ohio Citizen Action.
Look at the site you can even find the whole contract online.
Reading just these council meeting minutes, who were the idiots that would vote to hold Painesville responsible for such a screwed up deal. I have a 12 year old son that wouldn't fall for this!
They didn't see this happening?
Where was the News-Herald and other news organizations?
I agree with Term they didn't want the public to know.
If it is so easy for the average citizen in the internet age to retreive information, then why haven't we seen John Murphy's questionere to the News Herald?
Holy Crap.
I'm December 24, 2009 p.m. I asked for details on whether or not we owed AMP money on the failed coal plant deal, and anonymous and Term just provided them.
Holy Crap.
I also made a post on this site under "Merry Christmas 09" on December 24, 2009 at 5:37 p.m. saying how evasive McMahon's answers sounded when Term asked her at the council meeting if we owe AMP money. Now I see why she was so cagey with her answers.
Looks to me like she left out millions of dollars worth of information.
Holy Crap.
Speaking of the News- Herald the only story I've seen is Painesville getting out of the project. Where were the stories when they were getting into this mess. This subject was brought up at a council meeting yet no mention in the paper. This paper is bankrupt in more than money.
It also sounds like we are on the line for EVERYTHING concerning that plant, including our share of a possible lawsuit by AMP-Ohio against the contractor. And what if they can't figure out how to utilize the construction that has already been done there for some other purpose now that the coal plant has been called off? It sounds like we are on the line for every little expense concerning this whole deal because we OWN a portion of the plant. We didn't just agree to buy some of the power -- we agreed to buy a portion of the whole plant, right? Will there then be demolition expenses, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.?!
Holy Crap.
If this is the case, and McMahon did not give us this information at the last council meeting, then I say off with her head. She should have offered us this information. Nobody should have had to ask for it, and then certainly when she was asked for it, the information should have been forthcoming.
You also have to know that Abby, Fountain, Hada and Hach also are privy to this information and have never said anything to the "commoners."
Please -- someone tell me I am wrong here. Am I misunderstanding this whole situation? Did they get us into this horrible, horrible deal and then purposefully keep all the gory details from us?
Holy Crap.
The question is not only about the 3million but if we let the city manager slither out of this.
By reviewing this amp information, the question will be can we ever trust the city manager to tell us the truth, and how effective does that make her?
I will be taping the council meeting on Channel 12 today. It's at 7:30 p.m., right? I want to see again exactly what she did and did not say.
For anyone else who is going to watch the council meeting on television, make sure you stay tuned to the very end, so you can see Abby's immature vote to limit council people's remarks at the end of the meetings to 3 minutes. You can also observe how Hada, Hach and Fountain not only went along with this, but were almost certainly in on the planning with her.
2:18 pm
Why don't you tell everyone who else went along with it.
Mr. Werner voted for it also? I guess you have to ask him why.
Becks, Flock voted no. Yes it was a setup, why was Abby asked to speak last? Her performance was not recorded along with all others reaction. Guess the high-tech facilities could not record after 9:00pm?
This is how you get legislation to pass like forgiving fees.
Why wasn't Abby asked to have this resolution on the council agenda?
Please don't expect me to believe this popped in to her head when she was saying her good bys?
this is how Painesville operates people. Don't stand on the tracks.
Werner voted for it because he didn't hear it, and instead of asking for clarification, he voted yes. Stupid.
As far as I'm concerned, he can get out, too, but he wasn't part of it, per se. Was that your point, 7:42?
Term, You seem pretty sure that Painesville owes this money. How are you so sure?
I'm not and I wish everyday I'm wrong. Painesville can't take that kind of hit. I reached that fact that we are in the same boat as Martinsville Vir. Why would we get to vote on ending a project we had no stake in? As of right now I believe the city manager when she says we owe no money presently. I really don't want to be right. You know anyone with an extra 3 million?
I want to say again -- go back and watch the tape of the last council meeting when Cimaglio is asking McMahon if we owe AMP-Ohio the money. She says everything BUT "no". NOT AT THIS TIME, NOBODY HAS TOLD ME WE OWE ANY MONEY YET, WE ARE GOING TO A MEETING SOON...
I think we owe the money. They're just not telling us yet. They're hoping they are going to roll the money into the next project to soften the blow. I'd almost bet my life on this. How can we really find out?
Flock? Where are you? Find out for us.
I believe what we have here is a case of the city leaders being evasive and not telling us the whole truth so they won't look bad. Her answers to Cimaglio are some of the fanciest footwork I've ever seen when it comes to talking. I guess someone needs to ask her flat out that if we do not get involved in another AMP-Ohio project, then do we owe them the money? She's a slippery little sucker. Aren't we entitled to see whatever agreement we signed with these people. Clearly we can't count on McMahon and council to tell us the truth.
Mr. Flock asked this question of Mr. Marc Gerken (President/CEO of AMP-Ohio) at the Oct. 15, 2007 council meeting.
Mr. Flock asked if the EPA closed the plant before generating any power would the 93 members be liable?
Mr. Gerken replied that yes they would be liable but he does not see that happening.
To: December 28, 2009 4:30 AM
It would help you understand if you would read all of the comments (even the long ones) and also go to the links provided and read the articles.
11:24:
I take it from your post that there is no doubt in your mind that we owe AMP-Ohio money. Am I correct?
Here's my take on it: McMahon (city manager) asked Cimaglio how he arrived at the figure of 3,ooo,ooo. She says something about how she doesn't know how people are coming up with those numbers. She talks about a meeting they are going to soon.
I don't think anyone knows exactly how much we will owe them yet. It would be even harder for US to tell because we don't have the information we need from the city. (By this I mean we do not have the paper work we need, nor a city that is TELLING us the TRUTH.)
I think that unless we have an agreement that LIMITS our liability to a certain amount of money, then the money we owe could be endless.
I think we are part owners of this plant. I do not think we just agreed to buy power -- it's a much bigger deal than that.
If that is the case, then we now own a part of a defunct coal plant.
AMP says they will sue the contractor for the excess costs. That means that WE will be suing the contractor, too. Can the plant be retooled into something else? If so, are those costs a deficit to us, or a plus? If the plant has to be totally torn down, then I would think we are on the line for that, too.
I believe the meeting will help them decide if they want to go in on another AMP-Ohio project. If the answer is "no", then we will be on the hook for everything. If the answer is "yes", then maybe that money rolls over into the new project. But what does that mean? Does it mean we are even-Steven, or does it mean it helps defray out costs? Might that help our city get into another bad deal -- especially because they are keeping the truth from us?
It's my opinion that we are on the hook here, and we do not yet know for how much. Could it be more than $3,000,000?
When is that meeting? Where? Can we get a representative there? Can everyone go who wants to?
Even if they taped it for us, we know from personal experience that we cannot trust the tapes from this administration.
11:24, do you agree with me? What are the things you are certain of?
Does anyone have any jars of honey they want to donate?
It's for a good cause.
It's for the SAVE PAINESVILLE FROM ITS LEADERS cause.
we still have a contract with AMP Ohio.
AMP Ohio is just "re-working" a defunct coal burning plant into a natural gas power plant. They
are NOT walking away from this. Just walking away from powering the plant with coal.
We are in this up to our ignorant necks.
Why wasn't this on the ballot?
Our city leaders have sent up to pay for the next 50 years.
We will not be walking away from this mess.
Hello 2:12, this is 11:24
http://martinsvilledaily.com/2009/11/25/martinsville-joins-majority-of-amp-ohio-member-communities-supporting-change-in-direction-for-amp-gs/
This is written by Bill Wyatt ---- I chatted with his last night and asked him how he got the information in his article. He told me that he used FOI (freedom of information) to obtain the most recent "Agreement" between AMPGS and Martinsville. He also said that he did not know if Painesville would have the same agreement. Would council members have the agreement?
"Martinsville’s share of the developmental costs for AMPGS is based upon the estimated $200 million AMP has spent thus far on development of the facility. This breaks down to an estimated $260 thousand per megawatt. Martinsville had committed to purchase 8 megawatts, for an estimated prorated developmental cost so far of approximately $2.08 million."
[Painesville is in for 13 MW]
[260,000 x 13 = 3,380,000]
"In the short term, AMP intends to replace the power which would have been generated by AMPGS with purchases on the open market for a period extending to the year 2020. Replacement power beyond 2020 could be achieved through development of other generation projects and further market purchases."
"Legal action against the contractors for the AMPGS project is also under active consideration by AMP."
_____________________________________________
City Manager's Report for Oct.1, 2007
http://www.painesville.com/vertical/Sites/%7B66FDE066-2B9A-43E2-8DFC-2129003D50A7%7D/uploads/%7B5FB3CBCD-80C2-4C87-BF4C-0DC33A149170%7D.PDF
2. Resolution Authorizing Participation in the AMPGS Baseload Power Plant.
... The plant is proposed to be constructed in Meigs County, Ohio along the Ohio River. The project is proposed to be constructed by AMPOhio and paid by participant member communities. Each participating member will be responsible for the construction, operations, and power costs for their share of the project. The City’s share is based on the number of kilowatts that we agree to purchase. If the City proceeds with the project, it will be committing to purchase 13,000 kW of electricity for the next 40 years. Estimated construction cost per kW is $2,912. ...
______________________________________
Nov. 2007 council meeting:
Ms. McMahon stated the City is not paying over and above for the power. The cost of power will cover everything, including the debt service on the facility.
No up front or out of pocket cost to the City.
Only when the City buys power is it paying into the project. Ms. McMahon stated the cost of power is how we pay for the plant over 40 years. It will spend $37 million over the next 40 years. The City now spends $12 million a year for power for this community. The City would be committed to pay for 40 years the $37 million. The City is getting electricity for that. The City will have an owners share and will have a say with what happens at the plant. Ownership does not cost anything.
12:12, I agree. I am certain that we have not been told the whole story. I am certain we owe for our share (13 MW) of the construction costs so far.
What I would like to know is the big picture of Painesville energy use. If we don't have enough, why do we supply electric to North Perry etc.?
Someone mentioned earlier something about McMahon's resume not being available (or something to that effect).
Details?
This is 2:12 again. I forgot to add this to my last post:
I am also nominating Cimaglio and Murphy for this proposed group of citizens. Do you guys accept? Who else? Am I forgetting someone who is already willing and able?
First lets let the city attempt to figure out whats going on. Give them a reasonable time and if nothing is forth coming then we start with our own freedom of information investigation.
Maybe they got cold feet at the last minute and didn't signup?
Trust me there are to many people who won't let them sweep this one under the rug.
2:12 This is all I received. Sorry make sure the yellow block comes up. If you can please resend. Happy New Year !
The great AMP fairy has decided to build a different toy in the Meigs Kingdom some toy made out of natural gas, we seem to have plenty of that in the Queens kingdom as is?
All cost incurred so far in the Jack-in-the-Box factory will go towards this new factory. So as you can understand we haven't lost a jar of honey yet. Although Santa left a lump of coal in afew of the Queens pawns socks on Christmas.Right Sir Joe?
Sorry to rip you off Term.
This is 2:12:
Hi Term, I must have done something wrong with my last post and somehow didn't get it to you. The post was supposed to be above my 12:27 post. I'll try again.
For 11:24: Thank you so much for the info. There is now no doubt in my mind that we do owe AMP-Ohio over 3 milllion dollars. I am especially noticing McMahon's statements that there will be no upfront or out-of-pocket costs to the city, and that ownership will not cost us anything. I remember when all that talk was going on and how unreal the presented facts seemed. Since when doesn't ownership cost anything, for example?
Term, I don't agree with you that we need to let the city play this out alone. They've done enough damage. I don't see any way that they did not sign up for this mess. She said at the last meeting that we agreed to stop the project. How could we agree to stop a project that we are not part owners of?
That, plus all of her evasive, tricky talking at the last council meeting, has me scared. I think Hada, Hack, Fountain and Abby knew exactly what we were getting in on, too.
I think we are in the middle of a possible tsunami here, and I think the citizens need to get involved right now.
What about 11:24's question -- do Flock or Becks have a copy of our agreement with AMP? If not, we need a copy of it from the city RIGHT NOW, and we had better not have to evoke the Freedom of Information Act to get it! Or actually, if Flock does not have a copy, shouldn't he be able to get one forthright? Flock, are you out there?
The other thing we need to do right now is find out when and where that meeting is. We need to find out if all citizens are allowed or not. Even IF all citizens are allowed, we still need to have a core group of citizens there to garner all information. We NEED to have people in that meeting. We certainly cannot count on our city to tell us the truth. I believe they have us in a big, big mess, and the citizens now have the right and the duty to be completely involved and informed.
I had asked 11:24 if he wanted to be one of the citizens we would have as a member of the core group. My post of 12:27 was nominating Cimaglio and Murphy for two other members of this group. Do you guys accept? Is there someone I am leaving out?
Thanks again 11:24 for the information. Do you have any further comments?
Term?
P.S. Happy New Year to you, too, Term.
I will agree with you that the city manager can be very "tricky" with her answers. Its all most like to get the answer your looking to find, the questioning seems has to turn into a cross examination.
One thing I have found out is AMP-OHIO has many different contracts within the 81 communities that were participating in Meigs County. 40 year contracts, 50 year contracts with others. At this time it would be interesting to view the contract Painesville has with AMP,[good luck on that]
Council doesn't have the votes to make the city manager turn over the agreement with AMP, and the law director is hired by the city manager. [city charter]
To be honest I have no idea how this "Freedom of Information" even works? Looking for help though.
To 8:43
The way I see it, we as citizens need to make sure right now that we did not only lose our jars of honey, but that we do not lose more. Rolling into the next AMP project just might not be the thing to do. We cannot know that for sure, but as citizens, we had better find out real quick.
If we ARE on the line as owners with the defunct coal plant for 50 years, then maybe there is nothing else to do but to get involved with a new project with them ? OR, maybe we will be just getting in deeper.
Term: If we cannot get a copy of our contract with AMP immediately upon asking, then I say "off with her head" RIGHT NOW!
First things first -- we need to ask Flock and Becks if they have a copy.
I just started reading this site Christmas Eve. I thought I was a well informed Painesville resident is this AMP contract real or is this just a joke on someone?
Fairy Tale I don't get
Hi Term,
Here is a link on the Painesville website for Public Records Policy and also for Public Records Request Form.
http://www.painesville.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC=%7BC82B87AE-EAD9-4BC3-A2CF-1119FCF3AE25%7D
Yes, good luck to you.
To 12:52:
Yes, this AMP-Ohio deal is real. Term is just very creative when it comes to keeping us informed.
I believe the Jack-in-the-box "base" toys represents the "base" power we agreed to buy from AMP-Ohio. The Queen is city manager Rita McMahon. The Kingdom is Painesville. The jars of honey represent the 3 million plus dollars we apparantly agreed to pay them, etc.
Welcome aboard, fellow Subject.
You know, this may be as easy -- indeed it SHOULD be as easy as asking Jennifer (clerk) for a copy if Flock and Becks don't have one. Although, hopefully, they would get us one.
12:52: It may help you to watch the last city council meeting. A tape of it is aired at 7:30p.m. every day on channel 12 (until another council meeting takes place, then the new meeting will be aired). There is quite a bit of talk on the AMP deal. Pay close attention to McMahon's double talking.
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