"TRUST ME" janis joplin
Trust is one of the best feelings a person can have whether its your doctor, clergyman, butcher or friend. It's a great feeling. I once had my car repaired by someone I trusted, sorry to say I quickly lost trust in that person.
The reason I bring this up is because Monday night Painesville City Council will be voting on an electric purchase agreement with AMP-OHIO for purchases over the years from 2015 to 2020.
The question I ask is how can those seven people on council be comfortable with another AMP deal?
It was less than a month ago that the President of AMP-OHIO informed the city that presently Painesville's owed exposure to Meigs County was between 1 and 2.7 million dollars. [don't forget the interest on that money grows daily]
Along with him not taking any responsibility for the situation and then looking at council and telling them "You voted for that contract."
Responsibility? Who will except the responsibility for this blunder? The city manager who recommended the contract, the current council-president who "proudly" voted for it along with curent and past council people who went along with this without so much as apparently reading the contract.
Does the everyday resident of Painesville even care?
As I have mentioned to council, AMP-OHIO is not your partner, they are the seller and you are the buyer.
If AMP was a Mafia Don they would be telling the owner of this restaurant "You owe me money; now let's see, from now on buy all your supplies from my business associate Guido here and maybe we can hide... I mean make this all go away." One thing this has brought to my mind is I wonder if any city or city official from this town or another of AMP "partners" asks the new Ohio Attorney General M DeWine to look into the way AMP-OHIO conducts business?
Four things council must make sure of.
1. Please take the time to read the contract.
2. Make sure there is an EASY escape clause.
3. Run for the door if the words "take and pay" are anywhere in this contract.
4. Pretend this was YOUR money on a household expense, with what you know would you
sign up for a contract with a five year duration and starting in five years.
No Monday morning quarterbacking, just use your common sense and who do you trust?
posted by terminator1 @ 2:42 PM
42 Comments
42 Comments:
Sorry, Term, no one will read it and they will all fall in line after JaHaha tells them to.
Talk about Lemmings, this council is where they spaun from.
Oh, I almost forgot the people who will be responsible for this? The people of Painesville. It's kinda their fault for having the likes of JaHada, and his Queen running this mess. Right?
I cannot believe that they are considering another deal with AMP. McMahon has just got to go, along with Hada and that whole scary gang.
If city council is that good that they can predict electric prices over a five year period starting five years FROM NOW then that must be some crystal ball.
Shouldn't the title of this post be:
Lie to Me...... Johnny Lang ?
To 7:43: Yeah, and the crystal ball is obviously defective if we can base past AMP performance on its predictions. Another ridiculous and scary proposition by AMP. FIVE YEARS FROM NOW? Come ON people! Just say NO. It's easy. Take a deep breath, open your mouths and just say NO.
Remember its not Painesville's crystal ball it's AMP-OHIO's
Now if it has a simple escape clause that can terminate the contract with say just a certified letter maybe its something worth looking into. No strings attached. If its as good as AMP contends why would anyone want to terminate it?
The Amp meeting was October 14,2010 You have to wonder why council and the administration haven't approved the minutes of that meeting on their web site?
Just maybe they don't want people to know what went on in that meeting.
Now they have made me very curious.
To 12:42: People are basing their fear and apprehension on past experiences with AMP. And rightly so. Would be stupid not to. And based on past experience with them, I cannot believe they are even PROPOSING another deal to us, and I certainly cannot believe that the city is considering it.
Will someome explain to me why this city manager, along with council gets involved with 3 billion dollar power plants, 5year contracts that start in 5 years for a city with 18,000 residents? Oh, and Mr. Hada you may have a great industrial rate for electric power but could you at least be honest about residental use rates?
Maybe a charter change that spells out that the city can't get involved with anything over a million dollars without a vote from the people who stop stupidity such as this?
Just FYI, since the school channel has been MIA since the move to the "New" T.W. Harvey High School.
You can view the school board meetings everyday at 2:30pm on channel 12. I wish the city would atleast air the program after the council meeting program in the evening.
To 8:55: I second what you say about the residential use rates. I'm heating my house with electricity now (with low-usage heaters) and I'm being charged what I think is a fortune. The electricity rate goes down with higher use, but the power factor does not. I can't imagine a city charging more. So is that the problem? They brag about what they charge businesses, but the residents are paying a higher amount? Really, I am shocked at how much they are charging me. All I can say is that it is less than gas, but it's high.
5:04 I've been waiting also so I can publish the answers to my questions. I guess there's no hurry on there part?
This comes from the minutes of the council meeting Oct. 15, 2007. It shows how tight our relationship with AMP was.
I wonder if, after AMPGS and between 1 to 2.7 million dollars that we owe, it still is as close.
“Ms. Becks stated while using AMP-Ohio does the City still use First Energy?
Ms. McMahon explained the City used First Energy in the past for baseload power. The last contract
with them expired 5 years ago. The City now works exclusively with AMP-Ohio for all purchasing of power.
The City has probably sold more of its power to First Energy than what it has bought from them. Ms. McMahon
stated AMP-Ohio provides its own power contract. They are our power brokers. They find and dispatch power
for the City. The City’s Electric Plant is in constant contract with AMP-Ohio dispatch for the buying and selling
of power. They are an extension of our operation at the plant.”
I seem to view it as the tail wagging the dog. Does the city control Painesville Power or does AMP-OHIO? You have to wonder.
Sorry, Im not sure what caption this should be under but I thought "trust me" was the best.
Im sure this will be confidential till verified but is the John T Ehrbar in todays paper owing 209.62 the same Ehrbar on the school board? Hmmm? Confidential till verified.
This was posted in legal public record. Now is it the same John Ehrbar that sits on our scholl board? I'm sure it will be asked.
If it was my name and it wasn't me I think I would make that known.
Reading the Delinquent Adverting list, My question who in the world is Joe & Bob LLC ?
Did anyone notice Bella Donna Investment Inc. Hey Term I believe thats one of the movers and shakers?
Trust me --- we need another power contract from AMP.
This one is for 6 MW from 2015 to 2020 for firm price of $62.95 MWh . This is baseload power. [does that mean it is Coal?]
So in 2015 we still will not have enough power?
1. Hydroelectric Project on the Ohio River -- 2007 estimate was to be completed by 2012
We are in for 5 MW at $71.42 per MWh
Council voted for a take-or-pay contract for 40 years.
Mr. Gerkin mentioned that the rate for this was high for as long as there is debt on the plant. After that, it will be cheap power.
[How many years until the debt will be paid off for construction of the 3 plants? 40 years?]
2. Prairie State – this is the Coal burning plant in Illinois.
We are in for 10 MWh but that may be reduced to 7.2 MWh
Will cost $48.06 per MWh in 2013 not including transmission fees. (2007 estimate)
This proposed contract is similar to the Hydro and AMPGS contracts and is a take or pay contract.
[It never mentions the number of years of this contract. Is it 40 years too?]
3. AMPGS – this is the plant that will not go forward in Meigs County
We have a take-or-pay contract on this and we are in for 13 MW amount.
This is somewhere between 1 million and 2.7 million that we owe – for no electricity
4. Gorsuch – even though this plant will close this December, we will still pay them for 2 more years & continue to receive 1 MWh of electricity from somewhere.
5. NexGen wind turbines -- in 2011 for 2.4 MWh for 10 years [may work together with the new battery technology that is being tested at the plant]
6. There is also a landfill gas contract with AMP for a teeny tiny amount.
Where and who stakes their reputation on this $62.95 MWh.? Is it coal? Where does this power come from?
Again if it's such a great deal put it in the contract that Painesville can cancell this with just a certified letter. Anytime between 2011 to 2020. What if the going rate on the open maket is only $50.00 MWh.?
To many questions and not enough answers.
That was my question? Why did you just re-ask the same thing?
I was looking for a yes or no answer, not for someone to ask it again.
My point was will you be at the council meeting to ask these very questions? You seem to have a better grasp of this than I do.
Along with council knowing people are watching thhem and their vote.
Term, Do you really understand???
I wanted to know about mr. Ehrbar, the question was repeated by you then next you went off on a tangent about council. Has nothing to do about them. Please follow along and stay focused.
This is Nov. 13 7:52 am
I forgot about our participation in the Omega JV2 project -- managed by AMP.
We are in this for 7 MW
I think the real question now is: what is the capacity of our Electric Power Plant?
Is it 32 MW? or 36 MW? or 53.5 MW? or 60 MW?
I have seen ALL of these numbers -- what is the real deal here?
5:49 Why not pickup your phone and call Mr. Ehrbar? Why even involve me.
I thought you were questioning the AMP proposal? Sorry!
How much will coal power cost in 2013?
How much more baseload power do we need? This answer depends on how much we already have.
This is from OCTOBER 15, 2007 Council Meeting.
“Ms. McMahon stated the City has a stake and commitment to make on behalf of the community to participate in this for the next 40 years. This is how they keep the MW cost down. The City is looking at coal as the baseload because it is reliable to run every hour 365 days a year. The wind and hydro power do not work at the same level of consistency as a coal burning power plant. Wind works 20-30% of the time and hydro 30-40%. The City must have consistent energy and the only two forms of consistent energy are coal and nuclear.
Coal is the most cost effective at about $56 MW/hour in 2013. Ms. McMahon explained the cost for wind today is $116 per MW hour, gas fire turbine is $92 per MW an hour, and combustion turbine is $198 per MW hour. There is constantly new technology affecting power. The City has been looking at participating in wind energy in North Perry and in participating in the hydro plant project for a balanced portfolio. There is a certain level of risk for everything…..
….. Our plant currently generates 36 MW of power and our peak demand is estimated to increase by 2013 to 72 MW with a baseload of 40 MW. At 40 MW of power the plant will not be able to supply the power on its own or operate at that capacity. There is also the issue of future legislation restricting the amount of power the plant is able to generate. Each year the regulations change. It could decrease to 22 MW. The City needs guarantees baseload power for the future.”
___________________________
So, we need 40 MW of baseload power (Coal)
This is why it is so important to know what our Electric Power Plant’s capacity is.
This 2007 document says we can produce 36 MW.
The Electric annual reports for 2009 and 2008, both say capacity is 53.5 MW
This link is to the document that says 60 MW (created 11/4/2010) page 5
http://www.painesville.com/vertical/Sites/%7B66FDE066-2B9A-43E2-8DFC-2129003D50A7%7D/uploads/%7B82D41C00-77EE-442F-8D01-A64CD10F01E0%7D.PDF
Electric: Painesville Municipal Power
Net Capacity Available: 60.0 MW
System Peak: 57,900 kw
Another document states plant capacity at 60 MW (created 7/2/2008)
http://www.painesville.com/vertical/Sites/%7B66FDE066-2B9A-43E2-8DFC-2129003D50A7%7D/uploads/%7BE9F76C61-CFA7-49A1-8133-EA9383A04F93%7D.PDF
Now, I have heard Ms. McMahon say our capacity is 32 MW.
No increase with my pension, but my healthcare plan went up 200.00 per month. How much more do they want from us?
Don't fret the calvary is on its way! The GOP has a plan to provide a better healthcare plan for all Americans. Watch....
Were going back to 2008?
Term and his magical crystal ball. 2009, no Social Security increase. 2010 still no Social Security increase. The only two years ever that this pension fund has not had a cost of living raise. Again, only blame the GOP, Term? Gonna be a long two years until 2012 for you.
Let's see, hate the AMP deal and demand they read the contract but ignore problems in the stimulus and health bills because they weren't read first. Blame a policy of reduced regulation, increases in sub-prime loans and a policy where every American has a RIGHT to home ownership only on Bush/GOP when it began nearly a decade earlier Come out against ILLEGAL immigration yet attack the Rally Team. Campaign against an increase in the school levy (tax increase) but attack the Tea Party who fought against tax increases among others. Complain about an administration that is top heavy (too many jobs and assistants for a little city) yet give a pass to a political party that promotes the same big government policy. Willoughby mayor and part time secratary vs. Painesville's city manager plus assistant cost come to mind? Well, I will give you something else to blame the GOP for along with the weather and the latest Browns loss. Guess what comes just after a Census. Redistricting. Might as well start complaining now.
Americans expected at least a small decrease in unemployment two years ago. They didn't get it and the past election is the result. Jobs should have been the first priority. It wasn't. You have already condemned the GOP two months before they take office. Does it really matter what party turns the job market around?
I for one will wait until 2012 before casting my vote. To all those current and newly elected politicians of either party, you are on notice. You won't hear me blame you but you can expect me to help get you voted out of office.
I will say one thing though. You were against the school levy and actively campaigned against it. Signs. Going to city council meetings or school board meetings and stating your opinion are again positive ways to bring about change. Casting blame on the other side and nasty negative campaigning isn't what works. Just look at Hope and Change that turned into it's Bush/GOP's fault. We need open and honest debate from all sides regardless of party for these tough decisions. No one side is always right just as it isn't always wrong.
Term and his magical crystal ball. 2009, no Social Security increase. 2010 still no Social Security increase. The only two years ever that this pension fund has not had a cost of living raise. Again, only blame the GOP, Term? Gonna be a long two years until 2012 for you.
Let's see, hate the AMP deal and demand they read the contract but ignore problems in the stimulus and health bills because they weren't read first. Blame a policy of reduced regulation, increases in sub-prime loans and a policy where every American has a RIGHT to home ownership only on Bush/GOP when it began nearly a decade earlier Come out against ILLEGAL immigration yet attack the Rally Team. Campaign against an increase in the school levy (tax increase) but attack the Tea Party who fought against tax increases among others. Complain about an administration that is top heavy (too many jobs and assistants for a little city) yet give a pass to a political party that promotes the same big government policy. Willoughby mayor and part time secratary vs. Painesville's city manager plus assistant cost come to mind? Well, I will give you something else to blame the GOP for along with the weather and the latest Browns loss. Guess what comes just after a Census. Redistricting. Might as well start complaining now.
Americans expected at least a small decrease in unemployment two years ago. They didn't get it and the past election is the result. Jobs should have been the first priority. It wasn't. You have already condemned the GOP two months before they take office. Does it really matter what party turns the job market around?
I for one will wait until 2012 before casting my vote. To all those current and newly elected politicians of either party, you are on notice. You won't hear me blame you but you can expect me to help get you voted out of office.
I will say one thing though. You were against the school levy and actively campaigned against it. Signs. Going to city council meetings or school board meetings and stating your opinion are again positive ways to bring about change. Casting blame on the other side and nasty negative campaigning isn't what works. Just look at Hope and Change that turned into it's Bush/GOP's fault. We need open and honest debate from all sides regardless of party for these tough decisions. No one side is always right just as it isn't always wrong.
TERM, tell me honestly, do you really feel the country is better under Obamacare?
Because you are involved but someone else beat you to the punch. So you verbally attack the blogger because they mentioned it?
4:19 Tell me honestly are you happy the way our health system presently works? 17% of oour money goes to support healthcare, why?
Please explain 5:59.
Badger the Teaparty wants to cut the deficit? Tell me where will this government find the 750 billion dollars to extend the tax cuts for the top 2%?
Blame Bush thats a good start. It would have happen to Obama if he had invaded a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and found no WMD's?
If the Bush tax cuts are so great why are we in the position we're in?
I say scrap the whole thing and come up with a better plan.
Badger, why don't you explain why these tax cuts end this year? It was a Republian Congress that passed them? What was the reason they are ending this year?
Oh, and Badger I believe Social Security did pay out a one time check during the years mentioned.
Lets see how the GOP spend's the next two years. I don't think much will get done with the Republican Senate leader telling everyone that his most important job will be that Obama is a one term President. Along with a Republican Congressman telling us this is the most "corrupt" President in history? I read on a blog in India, that they were going to spend 300 million dollars a day to impeach the President. There I can start a stupid rumor too.
Term, You were against the school levy. A tax increase. We need to take each policy, new bill, tax increase and each politician and start the change there. You fought the school levy. So far, you are winning. You are fighting Rita and city council. So far you are losing. The school board, losing. You hate the war but how about the 20 new F-35 we are giving Israel to go along with the 20 they are buying. Just to halt construction for 90 days on the West Bank???? 3 Billion dollars for a 90 day halt?? In case you missed the news, they are still fighting a war in two countries. Police action, conflict or whatever, it's still a war. You seem to keep saying ALL Republicans are bad because of a few. I can name a few Democrats in Cuyahoga County to the ethics hearings in Congress that cast the same light on their party. Will this blame game solve anything. I've said it before. I don't vote along party lines. I vote for who I think is the best candidate or issue at the time. Have I been wrong, sometimes. I was simply pointing out that it will go a lot further to fight an issue or candidate than to just bad mouth one party or another. One thing I did notice, of the three dissenting votes two were R's and one was a D. A start and from newer council members too. Want to truly change the outcome, people in Painesville need to vote the people in council out of office who vote for things like AMP Ohio.
The only people hated more than Republicans by most people in Painesville might just be AMP officials or 4 council members after last night. Job performance is more important than party.
The extreme Left and the extreme Right will never get along. It's up to the 60% to 80% of people in between to try and work together. By making blanket accusations about one side or the other puts that person in the extreme groups. No wonder people don't get along and accomplish very much. An open mind is better than a preconceived notion most of the time. Debate issues or facts, not parties.
One thing I though about was how long will it take to recover the wasted money on this deal to make it worth while, if ever. 2.7 million can by a lot of electricity. Certainly would pay my bill for a while.
It is my opinion that Mr. Horvath lost his position on council mainly because of the immigration issue. We will soon have another election for council. More people need to pay attention to how the current members vote on the AMP deal and continue to deal with ILLEGAL immigration. A 4-3 AMP vote for (yes) can be changed to a 3-4 AMP vote against (no).
Expecting the current yes votes to change their mind is a waste of time. Now it is the time to show them who they work for and vote them out of office if you really want things to change. Time to forget the party and look at how they vote.
What party affiliation does each of the councilpeople have? Do we know who is D and who is R -- just for curiosity's sake -- not saying the bums shouldn't be thrown out no matter what party they belong to.
Party affiliation seems to have very little to do with city politics. DiNallo, Fountain, Werner I know are Republicans.
Hada, and Flock are Democrats? I don't know if the other two are indepentents or if they belong to a party.
Hada will help Fountain in an election against another Democrat at the time Murphy. Flock and DiNallo can work together. Along with most on council not making party a big deal.
As some of you there is a block of votes on council Hada, Hach, Fountain, and now I am afraid Fodor. This group always votes the same.
Party loyalty has very little to do with what goes on in council.
To Term 7:16: Yes, I had a conversation with Fodor over one of the AMP deals. I had the impression that he didn't actually listen to a word that I said. He immediately told me what a wonderful job he thought that McMahan and Hada were doing. He proceeded to vote "yes" on the issue. Now he has voted "yes" on this issue when he could have stopped it. I'll stop this post here because if I don't, I'm going to say what I think about that, and it ain't nice.
I would like to thank DiNallo for her "no" vote. She is new there, so it must not have been an easy thing to do. Shows me that she researched the information and her conscience, and then she voted accordingly. Thanks, Lori.
how you are registered is a matter of public record. You can find out what anyone is by going to the Board of Elections web site. Interesting.
I just read your main post again. And, yes, somebody needs to be asking the Attorney General OR SOMEONE to investigate how AMP-Ohio does business. I never saw anything like this in my entire life. And Painesville just keeps going back for more. It's beyond my comprehension at this point. Is that who would be doing the initial looking - the Attorney General?
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