"TEMPTATION EYES ....."
Plagiarism.... Something I will have yo admit to here.
Kathy Sak put a post up on her blog. about the "Clean Ohio Revitalization Fund" along with Andy Flock wanting time to read the final agreement, I believe I know now why the administration was in a big hurry to get council to approve this.
Starting on page 10 are some of the goals of the CORF, one that caught Kathys eye was "Low Income Minority Benefit." Maybe Councilman Flock and a few other members should ask what exactly does that in compasses? In all the times that grant has been discussed never have once has this been brought up.
It seems that as a council person or a resident its not what the administration tells you it what they don't that causes the problems.
After what I have witnessed at council meetings I have no idea how a resident let alone a councilman could trust in anything they are told.
I get the impression councilman Flock is a little gun shy and I for one don't blame him.
I never believed the plans for the hospital property for a multitude of reasons, location, the state of the economy plus the vagueness of the plans and developer.
Before any council person signs on to that grant I would want a written promise from the administration that low-income housing would never be put on that site.
Kathy also interviewed Commission Raymond Sines that includes some very interesting comments.
Hal Werner continues to confuse me. He asked the city manager some good questions, yet in my eyes didn't seem to get conclusive answers. councilman Werner still voted yes? Why?
The easiest way to get to get to her site is to Google kathysak.com and go from there. She has a blog. and a knack for uncovering documents.
53 Comments:
I have a message for the new council people. This is mostly friendly in nature, so hope that is the way it will be taken. Nobody wants to, or is trying to, put you in an "us versus them" scenario pitting you and the citizens against the rest of the administration. However, any citizen who does not have respect for, or trust for, McMahon, Hada, etc. probably has very good reasons after years of dealing with them. It is not a situation that the citizens created, and those feelings need to be respected and understood. Not asking for anyone to be a peacemaker or anything else. Just don't get in the "us versus them" mode, meaning you and the rest of the administration against the citizens. You do not have to purposefully stick up for McMahon. It is not necessary. You do need to help the citizens get this city on track. And if you think they've done such a great job and the citizens are crabbing and worried for nothing, then I suggest you go take a good look at the empty hospital for just one fine example. So stick up for them if you want, and praise them all you want, in spite of the millions of dollars lost on a defunct coal plant deal, and ten years of ignoring safety studies, etc., but don't do it on my account.
Thanks for the information. It seems to be a reasonable request to make the city prove that low income housing won't go on the hospital property. If they refuse to put it in writing give the place back to the Lake Hospital System and make them maintain it and find a better use. Low income housing is a bad idea.
Councilmen are you listening to the people no more low income period!
The info put out there so far about CORF by Kathy Sak , etc. is really not complete info.
When the CORF application started it was required to have an end user identified, since then because of a lack of entities willing to take on those requirements Ohio has now added a second way to apply that just requires the site is ready for redevelopment with infrastructure available, i.e. sewers, roadways, utilities. At the end of the application process which track did Painesville use and why?
The problem with going back today and reapplying a different way if we used the "Known End User" application is the time, the funding will not pay for professional studies required that are over 2 years old, so Painesville would be stuck with that cost.
The one requirement no one has mentioned that should be questioned is the CORF requirement that the property is cleaned up using EPA VAP guidelines. One of the results of an area cleaned up within VAP guidelines is the property qualifies for a 10 year Tax Abatement. What does that mean for that property?, does the new owner get it?
Some of my questions for Flock?, This whole application process was publicly available for 45 days at the library as required by law, why didn't you as a council person read it and understand it then?
How many of our council seated at that time bothered to read it?
"Low Income Minority Benefit."
I read the CORF document at KathySak.com
Page 13 number 7 (see below)
I believe we received this grant because we fit the profile of what they were looking for.
Facts:
Painesville is a low income city.
Median household income $34,842
Citizens below poverty 14.4%
Minorities in Painesville ---- I don’t have current numbers, but yes, we have many minorities.
Now read #7
This grant will bring economic and environmental benefit to our community --- which is low income and minority.
7) The five CORF factors designated within the Ohio Revised Code, although
intended as guidelines for evaluating projects for funding, serve as contributors to
the overall wealth of the community. For those projects remediated with the aid of
CORF funds, the economic benefit, environmental improvement, local funding
match, local assessment and indication of level of need, and the potential impact
to the low-income and minority population of that community contribute to the
health and wealth quality of that community. The reuse of the property results in
reinvestment to a once-dormant site with the potential for generating jobs and
new development, resulting in an increased tax base and revenues for the
community.
I don't think this has anything to do with low income housing for minorities being built on the hospital site.
We qualified for this grant because we (Painesville) is low income with minorities. And we will all benefit.
To 8:28 and 7:47 Would you think it would be a reasonable request by council or the residents that no low income housing be built on that property?
Under any conditions?
Where did the people, time and money come from to write that grant?
I can see Kathy saks post and 8:12 post as both being right. As Kathy Sak stated everything come with strings attached. 8:12 make a good arguement what the grant means.
Could it be written so vague as to meanin anything you would want it to?
Painesville needs no rentals or low-income housing, the residents must be assured we will not have anymore.
I have a problem with Flock always waiting until the eleventh hour, too. He needs to do his job right from the very beginning, not at the last minute with two weeks to go.
And I also agree with you, Term, it's not what they tell you as much as what they leave out. Always these important details.
Term, what is the $60,000 in 2003 that Flock mentioned at the meeting? We spent $60,000 on energy studies, or what?
Am I the only one who has a big problem with the way Hada treated Cimaglio at the council meeting? I believe Cimaglio's question was asking that instead of giving somewhere around 37 million to AMP-Ohio for our energy needs, why wouldn't we invest the money directly ourselves and create our own new power to go along with our old power. (Cimaglio can correct me if I am wrong.)
Considering that we have now lost what we think is approximately 37 million with AMP, and with all the new technology storming on the scene, that is a very valid question. Certainly a more valid idea than investing in a new coal plant for 50 years.
Instead of having that discussion with Angelo, Hada attacked. I give Hach credit for breaking in and asking a question of Cimaglio, and attempting to have the discussion that I think Cimaglio wanted. Hada, however, continued his diatribe.
Didn't work, Hada. We still notice that you lost us millions of dollars. No amount indignation or abuse of the citizens is going to camouflage that fact. You've got a lot of nerve.
10:51 Better late then never. He gets very little support from the rest of council, also there has been a lot of pressure to get this hospital torn down, he just wants to make sure its all done right.
The $60,000 the best way I can explain it was "seed" money to find out if a coal power plant was a good idea for all AMP-OHIO partners. Yes we paid it.
We are invested in another coal plant under construction in Illinois, AMP-OHIO.
This is 10:51 to Term. We are invested in another coal plant under construction in Illinois with AMP-OHIO?! Is it the same take or pay deal we had with the other one? What details do you have? I have to go have a nervous breakdown now.
This is 10:51 again. More thoughts on Flock. He is too late, is he not? As bad as this whole deal is in my mind, they (including Flock) have already lost the hospital, and they (the rest of council and McMahon) have been working on this grant for a long time. There are two weeks left to vote before they lose the grant. He should have read it long before this with any questions already asked and hopefully any problems already worked out. Making "points" is not the same as doing your job. Unless he's got a miracle in his pocket, he had better get on the phone fast with any concerns he has to see if any problematic wording, etc., can be changed. If it cannot, and he does not have that miracle, then he is probably just too darn late as usual.
11:31 It doesn't bother me, really.First off we havent lost 37 million that is a proximate amount of our share of the take and pay if Meigs County would have been constructed. AMP-OHIO has over a 200 million dollar investment that needs to be paid. Painesvilles share should be around 3 million. They will come up with some very inovative payment idea that will make it look as if no one paid their share of the 200 million. Paul Hach wanted to know what I would like to see done around here. I would rather we invested that amount of money in our area with our people on green energy. Instead of partnering with AMP-Ohio. I think we should keep the money here and reap all the rewards here. I have known Joe Hada most of my life and I truly didn't look at it the way you did. Sometimes I feel Joe is back in the classroom talking to a bunch of juniors, and seniors. I respect his opinions as I hope he respects mine. Thanks for your concern.
10:51 don't have a nervous breakdown. Google Prairie States Electric Plant. Call city hall and ask about our investment.
This is 11:31. Term, so glad to hear that we will not owe anywhere close to the 37 million for the failed coal plant deal. 3 million is much better. Still a very scary amount, but much better than the 37 million I have been thinking it was.
I wholeheartedly agree with your feelings that maybe we should find our own way without any more AMP-OHIO, etc. As a side note to that comment, I have to say that I am very disturbed that they went ahead with the AMP landfill deal. There was no reason to push that through without waiting two more weeks. Both you and Flock asked for it to be tabled temporarily, and I know that some of the council people were asked that by the citizens, too.
I will tell you my objections to it, even as I admit I may not have enough facts, but that was part of what asking for a delay was about. As far as I can tell, this landfill deal will cost us about $8.00/day for 14 years. It is also my understanding (which may or may not be correct), that we do not have to start paying this amount until the landfill starts to produce, which it has not done yet. So if that is the case, let's use twelve years at $8.00/day. If I am anywhere near to being correct with my figures, that is $34,500.00.
There was a little confusion on council, but we are not just agreeing to buy it when we need it. We are agreeing to buy it every day it is available. Going back to your thought that we should be doing our own thing and not going through other entities, and assuming I am somewhere in the area of being correct with my calculations, that should be at least $34,000.00 that we could have invested towards one of those wind box machines, or something.
It is my understanding that for this money that we will be giving AMP for this landfill deal, that we will be buying enough electricity to power one house. One house.
Rita's reasoning is that we may need (we do not need it yet) this for our green energy portfolio to keep the state and the feds off our backs. That was the only reason she gave, while leaving out the fact that it is only enough to power one house a day. There we go with those "little" details that are always left out.
I realize that they are on a deadline, and how AMP loves those deadlines, but we are not on a deadline with the state or the feds yet, and to me so far, this sounds like a stupid, stupid waste of money. I think it is money that could have waited and gone to adding to our own plant's resources for producing electricity by ourselves for ourselves. Council was asked to wait two weeks on this, and I am very upset that they did not wait. They just keep pushing this crap through.
I don't always support everything this city does but I think before people start pushing to dump AMP you need to learn a little more about what they do for us.
It is not just about building electric plants. Amp is also an entity made up of 80+ cities that negotiates buying power on the national grid during peek times for member cities that need it.
As with any other commodity the larger the "group" the cheaper the price. Yes, we may spend on some deals like the $8 a day landfill deal, but that $35,000 could also be lost in one day if we had to pay open market prices for power instead of AMP negotiated prices.
I think there is enough interest from the citizens that what we should be asking Mr. Hada for is a citizen meeting where they put all the pro's and con's of AMP on the table for us to see. As with most large dollar government items it is not about winning every little penny but rather are we ahead as a total by dealing with them.
This is 7:37 adding to my post.
If that landfill is producing now, and we should, therefore, use the 14 year figure, and I am correct about the approximately $8.00/day, then that is $40,000 lost. What the heck, it's only money, right?
AMP-OHIO purpose was to offer its communities electric rates off the grid, at a reasonable cost. Now they want to get into the production side of it with the Amp partners taking all the risks.
Like Term has mentioned this is a way for them to control our power and costs.
Cute, enough electricity for ONE home?
Mary Poppins
For those interested in Industrial power I suggest you sign up for the forums at Cleveland State.
We attended this forum yesterday.
http://urban.csuohio.edu/forum/events/03_03_10_energy.html
cut and paste folks
These forums are free and open to the public. There is a free question and answer to a panel who usual charge $300 an hour for consultation.
Wow is there some exciting stuff out there.
After the forum I wondered why we don't sink our money into studies hosted by the panel members instead of AMP OHIO.
I was hoping to see someone from the administration at this forum as the platform from city hall has been how will we provide megawatt energy to entice industry to Painesville in the years to come. This forum went into detail about micro grids and the new technology that is currently in use. Much cheaper than coal and so many tax incentives and grants available.
If this is a true concern of this administration I would think there would be path beaten to Andrew Thomas's door.
This was the panel discussion.
Reducing Energy Costs through Senate Bill 221, ARRA and Other Available Government Programs
Sam Randazzo, General Counsel, Industrial Energy Users, Ohio, and partner, McNees, Wallace & Nurick: “Improving Your Energy Productivity Through the Use of ‘Reasonable Arrangements’ (Special Contracts)"
Matthew Brakey, President, Brakey Energy Company: “Senate Bill 221 and the General Outlook for Northern Ohio Energy Intensive Businesses Going Forward”
Craig Kasper, Senior Energy Consultant, Hull & Associates: "The Financial Engineering Aspects for Renewable Energy Projects"
Moderator: Andrew R. Thomas, Executive in Residence, Center for Energy Policy, Maxine Levin Goodman College of Urban Affairs, Cleveland State University.
To 12:24. Fantastic. Another point that I have been wondering about, is their estimate on how much electricity we will actually need in the future. Of course no one knows for sure what will happen and exactly how much we will need, but it looks to me like soon enough some businesses will have their own contraptions to supply most of their own electricity. Also it looks like some of these things that may come along for businesses will need a small amount of natural gas and not electricity at all. Our city must get informed to be able to look at this from all points, not just investing in coal plants. This industry is having a sea change, as you pointed out. I think they need to be doing massive research before any decisions are made, and I wish they would have held off on that landfill vote.
Nice to know all that info is out there. Hope our city is listening.
I want to thank Tony Torri for his presentation to council at the last council meeting. He made a very good, strong point about this being America and, therefore, city inspectors should not have the right to go on your property without your permission. Thanks, Tony.
This is concerning 5:11's post. You think we should be asking Mr. Hada for a meeting so we can get informed about AMP. (I'm going to let it rip here, but my anger is not aimed at you, so please do not take it personally.) The premise is good, but what Mr. Hada would that be? Would it be the I-just-can't-teach-these-dumb-citizens-anything Mr. Hada? Would it be the I'm-just-too-smart-to-talk-to-you Mr. Hada? Or maybe it's the lets-hurry-and-push-this-legislation-through-before-the-peasants-catch-on Mr. Hada. Or it could be the let's-leave-out-important-details-because-what-they-don't-know-won't-hurt-them-(yeah, right) Mr. Hada.
I do agree with some of what you said. The citizens have been desperately trying to get informed and keep up-to-date with what McMahon and council are doing. This may not be what you meant, but the problem of the citizens not being informed is not the citizens' fault. Did you not see how Hada treated Cimaglio the other night at the council meeting? Have you not seen the great lengths they go to to make sure we do NOT get informed.
Add on top of that that I would not trust one word that came out of that guy's mouth, and it is not a workable solution. I honestly cannot think of one person who could give that information that I feel is trustworthy. Maybe there is someone I do not know about. On the other hand, maybe just a few basic paragraphs about our total committment with AMP, along with why they just got us into the landfill deal, would do it for now.
In my mind that would probably be enough information. Then we would be able to tell if we can or cannot move on past AMP if that is what is necessary, and in my book, that certainly looks like that is what is necessary right now.
One of the points Cimaglio was trying to make at the council meeting (I think) is that the Painesville leaders who started and made such a huge investment in our current power plant were people of conviction and courage. They took Painesville's money and put it into Painesville. It looks to me like we have very dedicated, smart employees at our current power plant. It seems they do a wonderful job, so we certainly have the basis for expanding on what that forward-thinking previous Painesville government did.
I personally wish we could get almost everyone out of office in Painesville right now, so we could find someone with the integrity to get us completely informed as to our current committments with AMP (as you suggested), quit getting in deeper with them, and stop all further actions until we do sufficient research to see exactly what all is out there and what the possibilities look like they will be. They're not even taking into account that many businesses and homes may be producing their own energy soon.
I just don't see Hada being any kind of answer for anything -- not for me anyway. Anyone else that someone could suggest? And please do not say McMahon. I wish Murphy was on the job. He would be a very good fit for this. Maybe we should have a citizens task force.
A thank-you from me to Tony Torre also. I believe he hit the nail on the head.
The inspector that seems to be a the bottom of all this finally has stepped on the wrong toes. Its about time the city reigns her in. She must be blind to not see violations from the street. Its all about power and control. Why have search warrants it you have a building inspector with this kind of power? I guess my true complaint with her selective enforcement on who she writes up.
I'd like to nominate March 4th/10:26pm for a council position. First paragraph is especially to-the-point! Right on.
The electric company sends be that flyer every once in a while, yet never any mention of building power plants in tim -buck -too. Funny all they ever mention is a light bulb that looks like a curly fry?
This city will have a lot to explain if only half og this stuff is true.
Pararie Energy Campus its not a college people!
Sorry to disagree Hada acts like a pompus know it all and keeps talking even when he has no clue.
The poor man almost busted a vein when he was corrected by the CM. "Its 2 million Joe not 200 million" He let his emotions get the best of him.
KAREN
9:08 has a very good point. I've been paying very close attention to what this city is doing, especially as it has to do with energy needs, and I had absolutely no idea we were getting into another coal plant deal with AMP called the Prairie State Electric Plant until Term mentioned it here.
For anyone who reads this blog and is still voting for these people, I am begging you, please, please, please stop it.
The new buzz word I continued to hear at the CSU forum was;
"Micro Grid"
It will not be feasible for very much longer to tap into the current macro "Grid" when there will many many more options to produce and procure electricity.
Seems to me as Americans we are not ones who like to be held dangling at the end of a pole and told what to do. If Painesville produced it's own power or bought power back from home owners, business owners etc we would not be signing multi million dollar contracts with entities we have no say in.
2:12 I hope you are right and we can vote logically but the last election gave me little hope. Someone earlier said; We must stay away from the us vs. them mentality. Couldn't agree more.
peace out......
So what does anyone know about this Prairie State Electric Plant deal that we are in with AMP, besides the fact that it is a coal plant? Is it a take-or-pay? How much will it cost us? For how long? Is there any info out there?
So the two new council people voted yes on the AMP landfill deal. They, along with the rest of council were asked to wait on that vote until we see how much money we owe AMP for the failed coal plant deal, among other reasons. The citizens still do not have even a ball park figure from the administration on the failed deal as far as I know. We're afraid we never will know, and we're afraid that figures can be even more fudged now that we are in this landfill deal. But still they refused to delay the vote for two weeks, and they went right ahead and voted for it. Fodor voted yes while thinking that we only pay on the days we need the electricity. Didn't understand we pay every day. Fantastic. Very disappointed. Think they were so eager to show support and solidarity for McMahon that they would have voted for flying pigs.
Yes, old new coucil will follow the CM to the far ends of the world to pickup enough electricity for one house.
The townspeople of Painesville should have their own award;
"The Miss. Management Award"
in honor of the screwups around here since 1997.
I must have missed something. Why has it been mentioned several times that this Prairie deal only gives us enough electricity for one house? I will believe you if you say so, but that doesn't even make any sense. Is this just an inside joke, or is it for real that we will only get enough electricity for one house?
the only way we are going to help painesville, is like when you have a ball team, and they get a new , what? that is what we need, now, folks, now.it is only going to get worse and worse.so, it is up to the new council.
Just that they are two separate deals both brought forth by AMP-OHIO.
The deal passed at the last council meeting was at a landfill gas site in Milan,Ohio.
Painesville will get enough electricity out of this to supply one home in town. The EPA will be impressed with this in our portfolio.
Prarie State Energy Campus is under construction in Ilinois which has a coal mine and a electric coal power plant right at the same location.
They should start mining coal at this location in April.
I believe Painesvilles investment here is around 5 million through you guessed it, AMP-OHIO.
We are also invested in Hydro-power on the Ohio River.
Watch your Power Factor everyone.
Hal Werner confuses you? This is what happens when you elect a person who's only goal is to do everything to make sure he is reelected.
Thanks for the info, Term.
For 6:40: I was previously guessing at the calculations for this landfill deal that we are pretty sure will only power one house a day. That's what we were told. If I am anywhere near correct (and please feel free anyone to correct me if I am wrong), it will cost us $35,000 to $40,000 over 14 years for this.
To madpotter1: Thanks for the info on micro grid (grids?). Your suggestion that we probably need to be consulting with these people at CSU instead of AMP seems right on. Any more info on these micro grids that you can share? What were the technologies they were talking about? Wind? Fuel Cells? Solar? I would love to hear anything else you are willing to share from this presentation.
Ms. McMahon stated the City has been a partner with AMP-Ohio in a number of projects going
back to the 1980’s. The City has participated with them in the JV2 project and Gorsuch’s Plant which help
us to provide us reliable power as well as resources such as participation in MESA to provide cost-effective
services.
http://www.painesville.com/vertical/Sites/%7B66FDE066-2B9A-43E2-8DFC-2129003D50A7%7D/uploads/%7BD64A0E7B-1F2E-446F-9D2C-2F4731C8D584%7D.PDF
Electric plant annual report 2008
Purchased power from AMP-OHIO (kilowatthours) pg.16
NYPA -- New York Power Authority (Niagara Falls) 10,658,000
Gorsuch -- COAL fired base-load plant located in Marietta, Ohio 8,784,000
Other --- (This is vague & the largest amount) 52,207,400
Maybe Other includes
OMEGA JV2 (Joint Venture 2) 7 MW
Organized by 36 participants. Its purpose is to provide backup and peaking capacity to participants.
Dec. 27, 2001, OMEGA JV2 purchased 138.650 MW of electric plant Generating Units. This is referred to as "distributed generation" becuse the units are sited near the participants' municipl electrid systems...
http://www.bellevillehydro.com/pdf/financial-statements/2006/9020%20-%20JV2.pdf
Total purchased power -- 71,649,400 (kilowatthours)
Total generated power -- 241,745.4 (megawatts)
2008 annual report states:
The installed capacity of the power plant is 53,500 kilowatts and consists of four steam turbine generators and three coal fired boilers.
Burned 131,918 tons of coal.
2008 annual report link:
http://www.painesville.com/vertical/Sites/%7B66FDE066-2B9A-43E2-8DFC-2129003D50A7%7D/uploads/%7BE98C82DC-89EC-4F7D-AA88-BBA3732089EC%7D.PDF
AMP -- Prairie State project 10 MW ----- new commitment in COAL
AMP -- Hydro project 3.8 MW ----- new commitment in Hydro
AMP --- Landfill gas site in Milan Ohio
Now I need an explanation what exactly is participation MESA?
Did anyone notice that new Painesville councilwoman Lori DiNallo recently won the "Super Raffle" by the Lake County United Ways. She won an all expensed trip to California.
Definition of a micro grid:
The evidence is growing that privately owned, consumer-driven, small-scale, geographically distributed renewables could deliver a 100% green-energy future faster and cheaper than big power projects alone. Companies like GE and IBM are talking in terms of up to half of American homes generating their own electricity, renewably, within a decade. But distributed power -- call it the "microgrid" -- poses an existential threat to the business model the utilities have happily depended on for more than a century. No wonder so many of them are fighting the microgrid every step of the way.
Here is an article that explains Micro-grids pretty extensively.
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/137/beyond-the-grid.html
Craig E. Kasper was on the CSU panel. They are currently working on local solar projects as well as waste management and wind.
their website:
http://www.hullinc.com/
Hull is a company who has been around and has a proven track record.
Dr. Charles Reith is another excellent resource although he is located in Louisiana. Check out his information at:
http://www.lacleantech.net/charles_reith.htm
Andrew R. Thomas was the panel moderator and executive in residence with Cleveland State Energy Policy Center. He teaches a course in Energy Law and Policy.
Hmmmm we have a city in dire straits of needing power supply and we have an Energy Policy Center 28 miles down the road.
But hey let's give Amp a boat load of money hundreds of miles away. Just scratching my head again......
Big Trouble in River City?
AMP_OHIO Meigs County Site NOT Prepped For Natural Gas.
Letart Falls... Even if AMP-OHIO decides to proceed with a natural gas-fired power plant in Meigs County there are no natural gas pipelines in the area Kent Carson senior communications director for AMP said. No decision has been made concerning placement of a Natural gas-fired power plant on the site.
"Our silence isn't because we don't want to keep people informed," Carson said "We're now considering all options out there, but we're not in a position where we can make a decision or announcement' Beth Srigent Pomeroy Daily Sentinel.
MESA --- more AMP
RESOLUTION NO. 1-07 AUTHORIZING THE CITY MANAGER TO ENTER INTO
INTERGOVERNMENTAL JOINT VENTURE AGREEMENT (MESA), WITH OTHER
MUNICIPALITIES AND TAKING CERTAIN OTHER ACTIONS IN CONNECTION
THEREWITH AND DECLARING AN EMERGENCY
was given first reading.
Ms. McMahon explained the City is requesting Council’s authorization to enter into an agreement
with AMP-Ohio to use their planning, engineering, management, safety and construction services as
needed. By entering into the contract, we will have those services available and have input on what new
services may be provided. Each service is paid for on an individual basis and only when needed by the
city. Until now, we have not been a member of MESA but have accessed the AMP-Ohio services on an
individual request basis.
Motion by Mr. Hada, seconded by Mrs. DelaMotte to suspend the rule requiring the legislation to
be read on three different days.
On roll call, Ms. Becks, Messrs. Flock, Hada, Mrs. DelaMotte, Mr. Hach, and Mr. Fountain
answered “yes”. Motion carried.
http://www.painesville.com/vertical/Sites/%7B66FDE066-2B9A-43E2-8DFC-2129003D50A7%7D/uploads/%7B890B946E-C98E-47B2-A830-04722EEEFD48%7D.PDF
Learn something everyday.
Still wonder what the four letters mean?
M-E-S-A
Most-Expensive-&-Silly-Association?
This is to 6:40 again. I left out a little info in my previous post to you. McMahon said the reason we entered into the landfill deal with AMP is because the "green" energy will look good in our portfolio. They explained that the state or federal government will PROBABLY soon want entities to have more renewable energy sources from green energy. My problem with this is that no one is breathing down our backs yet, and there are so many things coming down in the near future, that we did not have to throw away thousands of dollars over 14 years to pretend we are green. We should have put that money towards an actual viable project or piece of equipment that would have ACTUALLY given us an ACCEPTABLE amount of energy instead of this stupid sham.
My advice to all council people who care. You cannot just listen to what McMahon and Hada say. You MUST DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH, and you must also ask every little question there is to ask, because they are deceptive (to put it mildly). For example, did anyone hear it mentioned by McMahon or Hada that the landfill deal was only enough to power one house a day? Answer: No. McMahon mentioned that it was just a little amount of power. A few people ascertained that it was a little amount of money for a small amount of power, and that was enough for them. Went ahead and voted yes. When you REALLY look at the facts, which is an apparant 35,000 to 40,000 pay out (by my calculations that admittedly could be wrong, but I think it's at least close), to power one house a day for 14 years, it is just stupid in my book. And again, this landfill deal is a different deal than the new coal plant deal we are doing with them (AMP).
I think we need to be screaming in horror as we run away from AMP like they are the monster in a horror movie. How many bad deals are we going to get involved in with them? And council just keeps voting yes.
Thanks madpotter1, Term, and all the other people on this blog who are supplying all this very important information about what is actually out there in this technology tsunami.
I think that McMahon and Hada still think that all this new stuff is 50 years away, when it's right here, right around the corner, faster than I even thought possible a month or two ago when I started talking about it. It's amazing, and we are still getting involved in ANOTHER coal plant deal with AMP. And I still swear I saw an Ohio college with a new fantastic wind box machine that they are getting a patent on, but I still cannot find who it is.
Term, are we already committed to this new coal plant deal?
This is to add to 7:58's post about Hal Werner. I totally agree with what you said. Also, when Werner was running for office, his stance was totally different than it was as soon as he got into office. As soon as he got into office, he immediately started to sing McMahon's praises and kiss her... feet. Just another bobble head, to use the term someone mentioned previously on this blog.
Isn't councilman Flock concerned that the city will lose over 2 million dollars over his grandstanding? If this project goes down the tubes only he will be held responsible.
What's to become of Dr. Shinns office? Did he relocate in Painesville? Since this area is considered a brownfield will any dirt have to be removed and replaced? Will the city guarantee that no low income housing, or rentals will be built on that site. Along with no Painesville money to be used for anything to do with this site? This is not our responsibility in any shape or form. This is Lake County Commissioners, and Lake Healths pink elephant. Thank-You
I just watched the council meeting on TV again. It looks like to me that one of the reasons that Werner quit asking questions about whether we were sure we were going to have enough money for the demolition of the hospital is because Fodor piped up to help Rita assure him that we did. He (Fodor) said that it is $2 million that we are getting for the project, and it would be a lot more if we had to do it internally. He said there are no guarantees, but they're giving us a whole lot of money so obviously some intelligent people sat down and came up with this figure. Really, that's what he said.
Well, seeing as how there is no ACTUAL information there, just reassuring Werner so he would shut up -- you know, the same tactics that Hada and McMahon use -- I hope he is right. Didn't seem to me that he did a lick of research himself -- just going along. Great.
I had great hopes for the two new guys. Not so much anymore. Hope I'm wrong, but so far, not so good in my book.
Well, the Water Treatment Plant is back to smelling something horrible again, and has been for quite some time. Great.
3:50 The Water Treatment Plant isn't the only thing that smells fishy around here.
This is 3:46 again. There were a few other things that stuck out about the last council meeting on my last viewing of it.
1. Fodor acted like it has always been our responsibility to tear down the hospital, when we apparantly just took it back from Lake East last month so WE could tear it down, supposedly with the grant money. Why did we do that? Does anybody know? Is Lake East going to pay us for doing this for them? Do we get to keep any left over grant money? Really, what's the deal? Does anybody know?
2. McMahon mentioned that we have $200,000.00 in our budget set aside just in case it's needed for the demolition. Why would we do that if it was not our problem to begin with? If we have to pay out our own money, will Lake East reimburse us?
3. I may owe Flock an apology. He always does that damn grandstanding at the last minute and votes "no" to things so it looks like he is actually doing his job to the people who keep voting him in, so I thought that that is what his "no" vote was. I may have been mistaken, however. As I was watching the meeting again last night, I noticed that McMahon said that they just got the details of the grant four days previously with 30 days to respond or lose the grant. If they also just got all the final money details four days ago on top of the fact that she said they didn't have... what did she say? Something about there were previous (sounded like some time ago) estimates, but we couldn't get any current bids until we actually have the grant, so we had not done that yet... ?... What?
Does anybody know what in the world would happen if we didn't accept the grant now, at this late date? Would we be assured that Lake East would take the building back and do it? Or the county? Or would we just be stuck with the building like Fodor, McMahon and Hada said?
I'm so confused.
1:13 concerning #2 I believe the city manager meant that the grant had a $200,000 cushion in it for unforseen costs. I may be wrong.
This is 1:13 to Term. I do think you are wrong. Will have to go back and watch the meeting again to be sure. I'm pretty sure, though, that she said they thought the costs would be less than the grant so they anticipated a cushion there, but I also think she said that they left $200,000 in our budget for any possible shortages.
Term, this is 6:28 about possible money coming out of our budget for the hospital demolition.
At one point Hada says there are no Painesville taxpayer dollars involved. Rita says at one point that so far no city dollars, no general fund money is being proposed. (Notice she did say SO FAR.) Then later, I think it's shortly after Fodor helps to quiet Werner's questions, Rita says "the way the budget is set out, there is a significant amount of money that is set aside as a contingency because you are right, Mr. Fodor, you never know what you are going to run into in any of the buildings, but we have set aside -- it's over 200 and some thousand dollars for some unexpected things that might show up."
Term, am I misreading this? Doesn't it sound like she IS talking about possible expenditures out of the city's personal budget should it become necessary?
Another thing that strikes me as I watch this meeting yet again, is that DiNallo wanted it pushed ahead and voted on, and she, Werner and Fodor voted yes. After it was held back by Flock, Fodor asks if he and Werner can ask more questions about it, and they do. (Just to be clear, this is after they just tried to vote yes on it, was it not? Questions AFTER they already voted yes?)
So what do you think? Am I misunderstanding this?
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