"THE NIGHT THEY DROVE OLD DIXIE DOWN" the band
Sorry Joan only covered the song.
Lately with the tragedy in Charleston , South Carolina much has been made of the battle flag of the Confederate States. So many of us see it as a time in American history of our biggest original sin. Slavery. I guess *I for one can't get past reading the Bill of Right without wondering , I guess these Negros weren't considered humans by many of our founding fathers?
Some in the south claim the flag is part of their heritage? Well their right. It was also a part of the Negros heritage as well and that said it belongs in a museum not on Federal, State or Local government property.
The Civil War was called the war to free slaves.
Other's correct us and tell us No, it was a war over state's rights? Yes I guess you could call it that the 13 states of the Confederacy wanted to keep slavery and opposed states that didn't.
Lately I've even heard it as the war against northern aggression?
Most southerners I have come into contact with appear the most Patriotic Americans around. They honor and respect Old Glory. It's time that the south moves from the 19th century to the 21st century. Even as late as the Spanish-American War or leaders in Washington didn't know how Union troops moving south would be treated.
I believe we should respect Black Americans views that the Stars and Bars reflects a terrible time in the lives of most of their ancestors. In the same way a Jewish person might view a flag with a swastika on it.
Times ,hearts and minds change. When I was in high school the Willoughby South High School had a mascot in a gray uniform waving a confederate flag. (Yes I know it was a long time ago. A time when beavers were well just beavers.)
I have no objection to a property owner flying the flag on their personal property or automobile, it is a free country. Only the it is no longer be sanctioned by any government entity. Its passed time when we a truly one United States.
Please agree or disagree let us know what you think.
posted by terminator1 @ 8:31 AM
32 Comments
32 Comments:
But he didn't kill those people at Cedar Point, but apparently some people can't get over their Foxnewsphobia.
As for the post, the US government made a mistake ever allowing that flag to fly since the USA crushed the Confederate States of America. What country permits a symbol of treason and rebellion to fly over government institutions and buildings for over a century, after spending the resources and losing the manpower needed to defeat that rebellion. That the rebellion was solely over the right to own other people (since the CSA constitution did not permit any of their states to ban slavery, the "states' rights" argument is baloney) only makes it worse.
Any and all government buildings in the US should be limited to 2-3 flags, depending on the level of government: A US flag, a state flag, and if the city has one, a city flag. Nothing else belongs there: No flags of foreign countries, no POW-MIA flags, no "Stars and Bars."
How do/can you change history?
This country has so many bigger problems than this.
Politicians will do ANYTHING to whore for votes and this is what is happening in South Carolina now.
Stars n Bars an attack on Christianity? Haven't heard that one before.
Fox News occasionally airs idiots from either side to share their views. On any given news day, they look for people from either side of an issue to put on the program. Some days they can't find the best people, or sometimes any people, to balance the issue.
I laugh when people attack FOX. As if MSNBC, ABC, CBS et al were straight down the middle truly fair and balanced. (Gut laugh)
Love ya'll. (I hate, hate)
Read an interesting story about southern hero Dale Earnhart Intimidator #3 Had a bumper sticker on his car that read "American by Birth" "Southern my the grace of God" The sticker came with a confederate flag which he trashed.
3:42
You seem to deal in revisionist history.
A group of people who feel they have a legitimate issue tries to break away from the US government.
How is that "treason"??
Think back to "four score and seven years" earlier and exactly the same thing happened.
The difference was that it was against the British and it led to the founding of the United States.
Did you forget that part or did you just side step it?
You can't pick and choose the parts that fit with your view.
The rebellion was not "solely over the right to own other people". If you were taught that, or if you actually believe it, you REALLY need to do some reading concerning other causes and effects of the Civil War. Slavery was certainly part of it but by no means was it the only issue.
Now, YOU decide how many flags should be flown at any government building?? Where does this authority come from? I don't recall reading about it in any government class that I took but since you have all the answers, maybe you can point me to it.
BTW, what does Cedar Point have to do with anything written here? If you are going to make a point, please make it so the thought is complete and so you aren't just rambling.
1:35 Please fill us in on these other reasons for the rebellion? If the southern states could have slaves there wouldn't have been a war right? It was treason plain and simple. They wanted their way. Little did they realize the industrial revolution was just around the corner. Or did they simply believe African-American's were a sub-human species? Good enough to sleep with, breast feed their children but not good enough to be citizens?
5:52
"Us" as in you?
Easily done in the age of computers.
A common explanation is that the Civil War was fought over the moral issue of slavery.
In fact, it was the economics of slavery and political control of that system that was central to the conflict.
A key issue was states' rights.
The Southern states wanted to assert their authority over the federal government so they could abolish federal laws they didn't support, especially laws interfering with the South's right to keep slaves and take them wherever they wished.
Another factor was territorial expansion.
The South wished to take slavery into the western territories, while the North was committed to keeping them open to white labor alone.
Meanwhile, the newly formed Republican party, whose members were strongly opposed to the westward expansion of slavery into new states, was gaining prominence.
The election of a Republican, Abraham Lincoln, as President in 1860 sealed the deal. His victory, without a single Southern electoral vote, was a clear signal to the Southern states that they had lost all influence.
Feeling excluded from the political system, they turned to the only alternative they believed was left to them: secession, a political decision that led directly to war.
You might also want to read this (although I am guessing not since it blows you out of the water).
http://americanhistory.about.com/od/civilwarmenu/a/cause_civil_war.htm
Your second line is the most interesting.
No one can say with certainty that there would, or would not, have been a war. Under #5 in the above post it says "Before Lincoln was even president, seven states had seceded from the Union: South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Texas.".
That means that seven states decided to leave the Union prior to Lincoln being elected and certainly prior to the start of the war.
http://americanhistory.about.com/od/civilwarmenu/a/secession_order.htm
BTW, you conveniently dodged answering how this was any different than the Revolutionary War.
That's it for me. Hopefully you learned something of history in the 1860's.
5:52
You make reference to the industrial revolution being just around the corner.
Well, according to this, your time line is more than a little "off".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution
Looks to me like it was already past.
The south lost, get over it. Where else could the party who lost a war have the right to fly the losers flag?
If you want to fly a flag on your own personal views this great country allows you the right to do so. Whether the flag is political, religious, gay rights etc, fly it and fly it proudly. However the government is not the place for personal pride or views. We are The United States, One Nation etc. the confederate flag is about the seceding from The United States. It doesn't belong on public property where all citizens pay taxes and support The United States. I can't think of one ideology the confederate flag represents I can support, It's time to retire a tired outdated bigoted belief system.
7:12
Is that your best retort?
Looks like you brought a knife to a gun fight.
12:01 7:12 Just told you the truth about that flag.
Although the truth seems to start between the late 50's and early 60's as a sign of segregation. Seems that's when it made it's reappearance.
If the flag upsets the blacks, then it really shouldn't have a place in/on government buildings. But it won't help to take it down, because everything upsets the blacks. Even Obama said that you can't take away 200-300 years of history so fast. They won the right (and many white people fought with them) to make their own way, but they still want white people to go to school and work for them and be responsible for them. And what do they want from us to finally make them happy? One only knows, because I didn't do anything to them; my father didn't do anything to them; my grandfather didn't do anything to them; my great-grandfather didn't do anything to them, etc. And look at Obama, he's half black and he made it to be President of the United States of America, and the chip on his shoulder is so big, and his prejudice against white people so great that he is finishing ruining this country with his hatred of whites. The blacks are such fools and are so prejudiced, that white prejudice, which I believe was almost gone, is back and thriving with people who were never prejudiced before. And still nobody talks about black prejudice, because we don't want to upset the po whittle bwacks. Maybe they should have some riots all across America to get their point across about the flag. Po whittle things.
For most people, it's a sign of pride in the south, and I don't think it has anything to do with white prejudice. Take it off the government buildings, if necessary, but as far as stores pulling it off the shelves, etc., that's just one more example of white America's knee-jerk reactions to being called prejudiced by the blacks. The white people might as well get over it, because the more they bow to the black persecution mentality, the more the black persecution mentality will flourish, as we are seeing.
3:02
So true in so many ways.
3:02 Pride in what ,slavery? Any American business can sell what it wants to or not.
Blacks weren't persecuted?
Term,
Pride in their Southern heritage. Proud of the men who fought and died for a cause they believed in.
Why is that so difficult for people to understand.
Today we have pride in the US flag and this is no different.
People in the North likely will never feel it because they were on the winning side and winners get to write history, just ask the American Indians.
Besides, it really comes down to a freedom of speech issue. Like the burning of a US flag, I don't like it but that doesn't make it wrong to someone else.
The real problem, as I see it, is that the KKK uses the flag as their symbol. This should never have been the case but it is.
8:49 Explain Southern Heritage?
What did they believe in, the right to own slaves?
What would you write different about history? Sharecroppers tricked by wealthy plantation owners. Afraid free slaves would compete?
Why did the south let the KKK use their flag? Or for that when George Wallace refused to segregate Alabama schools?
Sorry, That flag only stands in my eyes as resentful losers who can't acknowledge the results of a war. Who fired the first shot anyway? Either your a Confederate or an American make your choice.
Term,
The second line says it all.
People today are not viewing the flag as slave owners. That went away 150+ years ago.
Look, just because you don't believe in what they do does not make you right and them wrong (or the other way around). Just a difference in your views.
Remember your last line in your current post?
It says "Please agree or disagree let us know what you think."
As I read it some disagreement was to be expected, right?
I am not clear on how you would prevent the KKK from using the flag. Do explain to me how YOU would accomplish that.
12:52 I guess I seriously want to know about this Heritage and how it reflex everyone. I wonder how Blacks view this Heritage?
Term,
On the first part I am not sure what you are asking. Please clarify "reflex everyone".
On the second part, I think the answer depends on whether they are looking at heritage with or without a racist viewpoint.
Just so you know, even though I was raised here, every single relative I have is from the South. No one in my family EVER owned a slave. I have never treated a black person badly and I can't recall ever having been treated badly by a black person. That is reality.
Are you implying that I should not have pride in my Southern roots because someone else doesn't like a flag that was used in battle over 150 years ago?
This furor was created because ONE person with an agenda, and photographed with a flag behind him, shot and killed 9 people. The flag had nothing to do with his actions. He was a nut. No one seems to address that point.
The fact that he was mentally unstable should not detract from something that others see as a matter of pride and history.
This country, like our City, has so many larger problems that need to be addressed more than this. Politicians will do anything for votes and this proves it. Where were they regarding the flag two weeks before this shooting? Simple answer is that they were not addressing it because it wasn't on anyones radar.
Let's work on fixing things rather than assigning fault.
$;55 I meant reflects on everyone. That said what is it about a battle flag if not the war is it about your heritage?
Also this was a time in America where Black Heritage probably was it's worse and that flag represents that time.
I have a hard time relating pride with that flag myself.
Yes he was a nut but for some reason or another he believed he represented the ideals of what that flag stood for.
And some people burn the American flag in and out of America, and others, especially in other countries, use it to show hate. Does that mean we should do away with it? Black people have shown that they cannot be happy here...at least not until all the white people are gone. If they think they can do a better job of running America, then let's go look at the black neighborhoods and see what's going on there. They're so fond of calling themselves African-Americans, maybe they'd like to go back to their roots and see if they can be happy there. They didn't like being called Negros anymore, and wanted to be called colored, so we called them colored. Then they didn't like being called colored and wanted to be called African-Americans (started during the "Black Power" era by one of the radical guys). So white people have bent over backward to say African-Americans. (By the way, I had a young black woman tell me that white people started the whole African-American thing to discriminate against her people. Sorry, but no we didn't.) It will never be enough. They are perpetual prejudiced "victims", and if you didn't know it before these last two years, then you know now that it will never be enough. And now the whole world believes them that they are held down in this country. For one thing, Michael Brown's parents went to another country to tell them how their poor, innocent criminal son was gunned down by a white cop for no reason. A professor in Brown's town, Ferguson, was telling the press that in the early 1900's all the white people left, and it is hard to get past that for the people of Ferguson. THAT'S 100 YEARS AGO, STUPID PEOPLE. Honestly, nobody can help people that are that intent on being victims, and he said that is why the African-Americans in Ferguson aren't doing well. Blacks think they are winning something now by all these riots and press, etc., but they've just shown us what losers they are. And God help the policemen and policewomen, because certainly America is not helping them, and blacks feel more empowered now than ever to provoke and disrespect and kill the police and to try to get the slightest bit of supposed evidence against them, because they know the police departments won't back up the police, and that they will settle any potential lawsuit so nobody uses the ..... careful now, here it comes..... "prejudice" word. White people need to find their backbones. Taking down these flags will just feed all the indignity they conjure up to try to deflect from the fact that most of the black race is a horrible drag on America, and it will make all the blacks feel they have even more proof that they have the right to be. I think they feel if they yell loud enough that we won't notice. Well I, for one, have noticed.
I think the blacks should have riots all across America over this flag thing. I mean they haven't had one in the last couple of weeks, and I know they're itching to have one so they can blame it on the whites, so this flag-thing ought to do it, I think.
10:36 I see the KKK is going to march for the flag. Tell you anything?
8:09 That I guess is your narrative of the situation.
Term,
To the point you asked 10:36, what does it tell you?
9:23 Please read what you wrote? Then tell me why the flag should be taken seriously? The flag has been hi-jacked by the KKK and other extremist groups who let that happen and why?
8:59: What do you mean, who let that happen and why? Who cares what the extremist groups are doing as far as this flag is concerned? And who cares that this is the current cause for indignation worthy of a riot for the blacks? If not this, it will be something else tomorrow. So the KKK hi-jacked the flag -- for one thing, they are probably protecting it just because the blacks are rejecting it. White people who are speaking up. Refreshing as far as that goes. That flag happens to be a symbol of southern pride in the south. It doesn't have anything to do with having slaves. States voted on it, but now it's being ripped away because of the blacks. I don't care what the blacks want anymore, as it will never be enough. Just because the flag has been hi-jacked, does not mean those minorities should matter when it comes to any flag for any states, or that the flag should not be taken seriously by the states who want it. Answer your own question as to who let it happen and why, because I have no idea what you are talking about there. Some new conspiracy theory? White people need to stop their knee-jerk oh-please-don't-call-us-racists reactions, because black people are more prejudiced than white people, and that is not only not going away with time, it is escalating to the point that it is so stupid that white people need to tell them to knock it off. If I can still find a flag, now that stupid white people are pulling them off the shelves, I might buy one and fly it myself, just for the principle of the thing.
5:54 I think we are getting a little off track her. Now if you want to fly the flag on your property or vehicle fine. Dukes of Hazzards General Lee even seems lame to me. My problem is on Federal, State or Local public property. Believe it or not it offends taxpayers and there really is no need to rehash 150 year old history.
Then again lets point out some other mysteries.
Army Posts;
Fort AP Hill, VA Confederate General Ambrose Powell
Camp Beauregard LA. Confederate General P.G.T. Beauregard
Fort Benning GA. Confederate Brigadier General Henry L. Benning
Fort Bragg NC. Confederate General Braxton Bragg
Fort Gordon, GA. Confederate General John Brown Gordon
Fort Hood TX. Confederate General John Bell Hood
Fort Lee VA. Confederate General Robert E. Lee
Fort Polk LA. Confederate General Reverend Leonidas Polk
Fort Stewart GA. Confederate Brigadier Daniel Stewart
Camp Van Dorn MS. General Earl Van Dorn
We have honored many Southern Americans most were trained at West Point and were classmates of the people they fought against. The North could have very easily forgotten these people but chose not to. To reunite the south back into the United States of America.
Only Jefferson Davis was viewed by the North as a traitor.
so I am to believe all these forts were named after confederate generals. That's despicable in my eyes!
Maybe we can make a deal? We bring the stars and bars down. Our black cousins agree to pull their pants up!
Kid Rock will still play with the confederate flag on stage behind him. Wonder how he will feel after Chevy quits using his song Born Free on their truck ads?
Going back to Like a Rock sorta like the Kid's head!
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