"SHAPE OF THINGS" yardbirds
We are less than 100 hours from voting Tuesday and I have a confession to make to all of you.
Issue 2… for or against S.B 5. I can tell you that in all the time I have voted (over forty years) I cannot remember any issue that has had me over a barrel such as this one.
I support the police, firefighters and teachers as well as most other public service employees and at the same time realize we cannot continue to go down the path that we are on now.
First, being a Teamster, I believe unions have a place in society. That said I do not believe public employees of any kind should be allowed to strike. They work in pretty much a monopoly situation. Can parents take their vouchers for schools and use them where they can do the most for their children. Are they trapped in a system and have very little control over what is best for them? In addition, are they teachers or test result givers? How many are allowed to teach and how many are told test results count the most?
Should safety forces be allowed to make demands that government cannot pay for without cuts in their departments or others? In addition, at the same time, is it a good idea to take collective bargaining away from professionals and let politicians decide what they need or do not need?
I truly see both sides and at the same time believe there is something going on that is more than wages, and fringe benefits.
It seems that most candidates cannot agree on this issue.
This is part of the Republican platform with the support from the Governor and GOP leaders in Columbus. What about Lake County Republicans? Do they believe? Are they willing to put their careers at risk?
Where is the Democrat leadership on this issue? Again MIA.
I would like to hear your comments on this issue.
1. Will this issue save money and/or jobs?
2. If it passes or fails, will there be more or less employees in our schools and cities next year?
3. What is a fair percentage for retirement and healthcare benefit employee contributions?
4. Do you believe public workers are overpaid or underpaid compared to the private sector?
5. Do you think you will vote for it hoping they will tweak it after passage…or will you vote against the whole thing even though you believe some of it is necessary?
In a final comment, before someone tells me teachers only work 185 days a year, I will remind all of you the Speaker of the House John Boehner has only scheduled Congress for 109 days in 2012. Sounds like things are pretty much on autopilot in Washington D.C.
posted by terminator1 @ 5:13 PM
48 Comments
48 Comments:
It would be a very bad idea to vote for something if you didn't like EVERYTHING in it. Once it goes through, that's what ya got, so you better hope that you like it - all of it. If something goes too far, it goes too far...vote no until and when they bring it back and the whole thing makes sense.
Don't vote No on issue 2 then turn around and vote against every levy. It doesn't make sense.
You want them to have free reign then pay for it!
Issue 2 is useless. None of the local administrators want the responsibility of holding the employees to the fire. There will be less of all three, along with a multitude of levys. They don't want to pay 15% for there health care? they want to retire at 50. That's what this is all about. and we are to sacrifice to make it happen for them!
Do we need to pay $70,000 for a first grade teacher? plus bennies.
Yes, something is going on.
Ohio is reviewing contracts with public employees. So far the number of unions (public) covered by collective bargaining for the number of employees is somewhere between 12 and 25%. So most public employees can't decide how many people get hired. Don't the taxpayers elect representatives to determine how much we pay in taxes to pay for public employees. How much of this power do we want to give to the unions. We don't elect union leaders so why give them power to spend our tax money by setting employee levels. Some how we need to live in a budget.
So who is behind all the money for the ads to overturn SB 5? I think it is the union leaders and not the rank and file. They want THEIR job protected. Why else would the teachers union have two different pension plans, one for teachers and the other for union bosses. Guess which one is funded over 95% and the other less than 65%. The average public worker has little choice as to have money taken to pay for these adds. Wonder how many teachers, firefighters or policemen we could hire with that money. The union bosses want to protect the closed shop idea at all costs. Will that create more jobs? I doubt it.
There are many agencies now to protect the worker. Who protects my tax money and makes sure we get the most in job performance for what we pay. The time of 50 years with a pension and a gold watch from one employer is over. What ever happened to an honest days work for a honest days pay. I hope my boss or employer makes money, then I know I have a job.
? again.
We elect representatives to set tax rates or levies and then we vote on them.
We don't vote for teachers, firemen, policemen or union leaders to set employee numbers.
We can always vote an official out of office if they don't make the right decision. We can't just get rid of a public employee, even if they don't do their job. Just cause????? Just my thought.
Here's a prediction for you Ang you and that other flocker will be both crying in your beer Tuesday nite. You will not have overthrown the queen and king!
Well maybe your right? But a wise friend once told me "Alcohol does not solve any problems.......
but then again neither does milk."
No crying into anything just a concern of where this town is headed.
Will the Millstone deal be brought up at council Monday night?
Yes I think it will be but not for the public to hear. That will be taken care of in Executive Session under real estate. Under cover of any public scrutiny. That said you can go and ask what's going on. I'll see if the court documents are public on this.b Hey maybe that guy that works at the courthouse can forward it to us?
The best thing the failure of Issue 2 could be the end of harmony by Republicans in Ohio. If when YES fails the finger pointing will start Ohio GOP head vs. Gov. Ask that Fellows guy?
Do the math. Would Painesville be better off with 5 firemen making $60,000 a year. OR 6 firemen making $50,000 a year? Same goes for teachers and other government employees? If issue 2 fails the layoffs will start because the greed of the oldest will cause the layoffs of the youngest. simple we will have fewer.
7:40 Can they legally do that? Is this your $600,000 to the court within 14 days for Millstone?
Those that are really concerned about what SB5 will do have already looked it over. But here is a few things you need to know. One the Painesville safety forces already pay 10% of their wages into retirement, also they pay around 12% into health care or more. They have nthing to say about those two items the 10% is set by the retirement board, and the city has a board that sets the health care payment. The state of OHio sets the retirement age, they have no control over that either. At one time opers retirement age was 52 and Police and Fire was 48, both at 25 years of service. Would you want to be 50 or 55 and fighting fires or running through yards trying to catch the bad guy, I don't think so. Incase your are thinking that they have this great retirement package, I retired from the Painesville Police in 1997 and got no free medical covrage, to cover my wife and I with basic heath car and perscription was 800.00 a month and going higher every year. That sounds about the same as everyone else . Every private sector employee has a choice of being union or non union, is it not fair that public employees don't have the same rights. Right now if you watch new contracts being done you see these greedy public employees taking pay cuts and freezing pay raises because we understand nothing from nothing is nothing. We know that money is very tight and the taxpayers are at wits end, because we too are taxpayers.We also see private unions getting pay raises and then their products ,that we have to pay for , go higher in price to cover the wage increase.
We pay the increase as we have no choice on that also. You see we pay the same in taxes that you do and we suffer the same because of bad job market and higher price for products. SB5 is really bad for everyone, except the OSP and thoses hold elected officers, because they are exempt for the law.They should also be restricted by the bill. I beleive that all worker should have the freedom of choice and to end that would put use back to the days of nonunion & the employeers would be in control of everything, not good......Pardon me for any type errors Not as good on Keys as I was
Issue Two or SB 5 doesn't mean pay cuts. Those will go on as before. Both sides will still negotiate pay.
Where the savings or increases will come from is the benefit packages. The $50,000 or $60,000 that 7:58 talked about will always be there. The fact that we need to control health and pension costs by being able to shop for better providers and have the employee pay 15% of health care and 10% of pension costs (not unreasonable in my opinion) to help control costs. Adding possible benefit savings and the employees contribution might just add another fireman, policeman or teacher. Isn't that what's best for our city or any city.
The unions are spending millions and millions of dollars to fight this. The taxpayer can't just say, well the union made car costs to much now so I will have to wait or buy something else. I also don't agree with with the statement that this shouldn't be on the backs of the public worker. Well aren't we all in this economy together? Shouldn't we all pay our fare share of benefits?
Yes, there have been a few layoffs in public services. BUT. Name one that was ever outsourced. One that ever went bankrupt. One that just went out of business.
Don't even get me started on merit pay. Everyone agrees that the AMP contract was bad. How about the basically no cut guaranteed contract teachers and most public workers get? How many of us get that same guarantee in our job if we haven't had to take a pay cut or been laid off already?
The dismantling of America's Middle Class is in it's final stage. If allowed to continue at this rate, there will be a two class system in less than 5 years. The very Rich and the very Poor. SB 5 is just another nail in the working man's coffin!
As far as future elections, one party will be running and one party will be winning. The fall of Unions will mean only one party will have a victory and in the words of Karl Rove a "Permanent Majority" in the three Branches of Government.
BTW... Folks, There is a class war going on and you're not effing paying attention!
Worse yet - you're LOSING!
How d'ya like THEM apples?
I'm presently paying over 35% of my health care costs. and only have social security. Mr. Howlett can you give me any reason I should pay more for you? Why should I pay for a benefit I nowhere come close to matching. I don't believe you have any idea how hard pressed we are out here.
2:40pm I agree. And I pay 55% of my health care and only have social security. Mr. Howlett, you may have a lot of people snowed, but my eyes are open.
Mr. Howlett could you come up with some numbers that public employees will accept as reasonable to pay for their own health care and retirement contributions?
I'm almost positive they want nothing to do with national healthcare or Social Security?
I'm trying to find a baseline.
2:40 I pay almost 40% at the going rate, I also paid into ssn whorking second jobs all my life, an I conot collect on that. You donot pay anything for me, Iam retired, just like you trying to make ends meet. I only have my state retirement even though I paid into two. You only paid into one and get from that one. Like many others you should have invested into a 401K, or something like that, which I did not have the option to do. Iam well aware of the middle class issue, Iam also aware that when I started in the public sector I made 3.35 an hour,caring a gun and putting my life out there. I will bet you started a little higher than that. I had a family member who work for a steel complany driving a towmotor, made much more =money than that and every six years got 13weeks paid vacation...So who is at fault for this problem Not me, nor you , we are just trying to deal with it.
Please remember that police and fire retire with a pension but are not eligible to receive social security. So don't confuse us with private employees that actually have a pension (i know that is rare anymore) AND social security. And after retiring we have to pay for our own healthcare until we are eligible, like everyone else, for Medicare.
Also, please read the entire bill. If you can say you read the whole thing and still believe a yes vote is the right thing then exercise your right and vote yes. But if you have not read the 300 plus pages then please don't vote on this issue at all. It is a disservice to our democracy to vote blindly. Vote on fact and not on some emotional commercials we have all seen on TV.
I think we will get some idea after Tuesday. will there be a difference in the vote count for issue 2 vs issue 3 that imposes a penalty collected by the IRS if you don't buy health care. The public employee already gets a deal for health care and almost all make more than the maximum income to receive a tax credit.
One thing people here forget, this is a state issue and not just one covering Painesville. There are almost 400,000 public employees in Ohio.
Don Howlett, we all are paying higher prices. Welcome to the real world. One thing is that we can choose to buy something at a higher price or not to. We have no choice when it comes to paying taxes. The only way to save tax money (mine and yours) is to vote to curb runaway government spending.
Is issue SB 5 the perfect solution? Maybe, maybe not, but what we have now definitely isn't working. Throwing more money at the school system hasn't helped our schools ratings. Throwing more money in the form of pay and benefit packages won't create more jobs either. We need more people working not just the same people working for more money.
I'd much rather be called anti-union than anti-worker or anti-employment. Want to have a larger budget to hire more workers, then increase the number or people who pay taxes into that budget.
Interesting comment
"I'm almost positive they want nothing to do with national healthcare or Social Security?"
Are they OK with the government signing their check but not for providing their benefits? I'd like an answer to this myself.
I only wish some of you public employees understood the fact that it is unassailable to continue to pay the benefits you now receive? Plus all the "double dipping" going on? Mr. Howlett I believe you said you are retired yet you still are a policeman for the courts?
How many paid holidays do public employees receive? Sick days, personel days? Was your retirement income robbed by the government to pay for everything else from soup to nuts and yes even wars?
The answer is simple people making $35,000 can not continue to pay employees making more then double that.
Thanking everyone who works as policemen, firemen, teachers just remember it's not like you were drafted. I was and I have never had Veterans Day as a paid day off.
Don, are you 62 or 65? If you had a second job that withheld social security from your check, then why can't you collect from that. Maybe not enough time to pay into it but I know teachers that collect both. Yes their SS check is very small compared to their teachers pension, but they receive both. I happened to start at $1.90/hr. So that just shows what inflation and pay raises do to our pay rates.
Chris, what do you think anyone else who retires after 25 or 30 years has to do until they reach 65. Maybe this shows that public employees just expect everything to be paid for them for life. No one will pay my health care until I am eligible for Medicare. Guess what, even then, I will still pay for a portion of my coverage.
Again, welcome to our world.
Don, so does that qualify you as a double dipper? You retired in your what 50's? Now you work for the court system? Sounds like you just expect the average taxpayer to continue to pay all your benefits. You chose to take a job that had 30 years and out option. Sure wish the rest of us had that option. Would be nice to retire in my 50's and expect all my health care to be paid for the rest of my life. Too bad your new job is more like the rest of the taxpayers jobs in the private sector and you pay 40% toward your health care.
So, tell me, what is the BIG problem with being asked to pay 15%? This kind of thinking makes me want to support SB 5 now. Wonder how this kind of thinking will effect a certain council candidate and how she votes for financial issues for the city? Free thinker or how someone is raised? Interesting question to think about, isn't it.
Just curious, seems to me politicians and greedy bankers started this recession with their wars, housing "bubble," lies, and greed.
Why is it now, we are asking public workers, policemen, teachers, unions, and the working middle class to give up their wages, benefits and pensions to pay the bill?
We are blaming the wrong people!
11:59 Yes your right. The problem is there's an old saying tha""S&$t goes down hill." We always take care of our wealthy. TARP? I wonder if those 99% are even given tarps to sheild them from rain?
Kasich worked for the biggest brokerage firms and now the little people must pay. Thanks Gov.
I personally voted against SB 5, but I am hoping that if it fails they bring back smaller, more narrow bills with things that everyone can agree on, because I think there are certain things that Democrats AND Republicans equally do not like and that would pass, and would make some adjustments in some of the things with unions, etc. that have gotten out of control.
For 26 years I paid into Social Security. For the last 15 years I have worked for the state. When I retire I will not be able to collect everything I put into SS, I will only get one third of it. How fair is that? I can't remember the name for this change, but the government did this. Of course nothing affects the politicians or many in administrative positions, just us poor working class Americans. I would like to see everyone pushing their Congressmen and Senators to take the same as everyone else has to. It is my understanding if SB5 passes it will not affect Kasich. How can they keep getting away with this? We need to take action and demand parody.
You are slipping, nothing about the council meeting tonight. Darn, I'm going to miss all your negative spins. There were a few things left up in the air last meeting and I'm sure there will be other topics too. Your thoughts please, or are you waiting on the other flocker since he has a tendancy to hold things up too.
8:2 Ihave engough money in ssn to collectt around 900.00. I don't get any where near that, and next year when I am 65 that will go to the negitive side.
7:21 If you wish to call it double dipping Iam and all the officers at court are the lowest paid in the Muni court. been there 12 years and making 13.00 an hours really huge amount. The 800.00 I pay for health care is my retirement health care. NOT FREE Wish someone would check the facts before condemening someone else. I guess we will find out tomorrow when its all done..
"Ihave engough money in ssn to collectt around 900.00. I don't get any where near that, and next year when I am 65 that will go to the negitive side."
Please explain this statement. First you say you don't get SS and this appears like you are saying you do. And how does one receive negative SS?
$13/hour plus your pension from the police force. Sounds like you are a little misleading. I'm sure you can find quite a few people in Painesville who would work for $13 and be happy to just be working at all. You get your pension on top of that. Sorry, don't feel sorry for you or the amount you have to pay for health care. I pay a lot more and have to worry every day if I will still have a job to go to, let alone collect a pension on top of it. Besides, who do you think foots the bill for the rest of your health care costs? Ask someone who has to buy their own policy. They probably pay $1200 to $1600 or more per month.
The 10% and 15% contributions are a reasonable amount to expect public workers to pay. Retire before you turn 65 and then complain that you don't get Medicare. Well, neither does anyone else.
What happened 4:23? Not much for the first time Mrs. DiNallo had me more confused then Hal?
Oh and I learned that 8 dollars a month added to your water bill? Mainly due to the million dollar a mile for new water pipe? Well the city accepted a bid to run a new waterline from Lighthouse Point to Rt2 for less than $276,000?
Sharp pencils down under the "Golden Dome."
It seems Don Howlett is embarrassing himself and the rest of the public servants by posting what amounts to the most horrible spelling and sentence structure that I've seen on this blog. Is this the quality of our Painesville Police?? And second... 6:59 you actually pay, or know someone that pays 1200.00 a month for health Insurance?? Doubt it
8:34pm, I pay $984/month.
8:34pm, I pay $984/month.
T-Minus 5-6 hours before we will know if council will have some intelligent people or some buffoons with the the antiquated flocker. My gut tells me the voters are way too smart to vote for Murphy, Werner and Tibbets!
6:59 here
Ever price or pay for your own hospital insurance? Paid entirely by yourself. No company paying part of it for you or getting group rates.
Until the cuts made recently, if you pay SS, you paid half and your employer paid half. Work for yourself and you must pay both halves and have your own health care policy.
So the answer to both is yes, for several years in the past and yes I know people who have to pay this much for their own health care.
I went to the polls at First Church, I was going to vote for John Murphy, but when I got there Arlen Becks was in the parking lot yelling vote for Murphy, he is supported by Counclwomen Becks, at that point I had no choice but to vote for Jenkins.
Term,
I think I need to make a correction to my early comment, my wife and I both voted for Paul Hach not Jenkins,
I think I typed Jenkins, because my wife was reading off the results from her laptop.
We voted for Paul hach, because of the way Arlen Becks was yelling in the parking lot of the polling place
"vote for John Murphy he is backed by councilwomen Becks"
We had no choice.
Thanks
Murphy's loyalty is a great quality but sometimes very mis-guided...and its hurt him in the long run. In the real political world you might have to cut a few loose for the greater good (in this case, winning an election) Sorry John...I feel the same way as 9:24...would have loved to vote for you but some of your 'friends' scare me.
Hey Term...hope you give Deleone a chance to screw up before you go on the offensive...
I hear people complaining about the benefits police, fire, teachers have and how unfair it is. For people like Don Howlett who put in 25yrs working rotating shifts, wondering if that next traffic stop or alarm drop was going to be his last call, having to deal with people that are the reason you lock your doors at night, Firefighters racing to a house fire thinking is this my last call, will I see my family tomorrow? Teachers, who in most cases have more interaction and influences upon the development of your children than you as parent do. Yes, your right, we have certain quirks and benefits the public sector doesn’t have. However, we do our best to show our appreciation daily so you can feel safe in your home; so when you dial 911 for that medical emergency, you’re getting the best, and when you send your children to school, you have teachers who do their best to help develop your child into a productive adult. So next time instead of complaining about what we get and how unfair it is, how about give thanks once and while for people who make your life a little better, unless you want to get people who don’t care cause “well it is just a job, who cares”. You can have that attitude working at McDonald’s and be angry cause you didn’t your fries, but its not the attitude you want patrolling your streets, responding to your seizure, or teaching your children.
7:27am, yes, so dedicated and moral. Yet how many threats were received by the Pro Issue 2 folks. They were made to fear putting out a "YES" sign because of retaliation. You resorted to lies to keep your bennies. I have no sympathy and now no respect for you.
Since we are talking about the dangers of working in Painesville for $13 an hour, how about those in the Military being shot at, blown up and killed for what works out to be $11 an hour. These same servicemen and women are away from their families for months or years at a time. They are also at far greater risk than standing guard in a court house.
Next time you complain about working at the courthouse and collecting your pension, talk to a serviceman sitting in a foxhole , sleeping in a tent or patrolling a enemy street with people just waiting to kill him.
Oh, come on 4:36. Admit it. Having to carry a gun to protect the citizens in this day and age for $13.00 is taking on a high risk for very little money. Nothing taken away from the military. This guy was probably in the military, too. I for one appreciate the job he is doing so lay off, would ya?
4:36pm well said! This really puts things in perspective. Our military don't receive any where near the benefits of our teachers let alone our police. Something is majorly wrong here, and yes, teacher, stop your whining.
6:36pm, Howlett retired with full benefits. He chooses to doubledip at this job. I would gladly sit there and do his job. If he's afraid, let him sit back on the pension I am paying for and let someone who needs the job take it.
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