COMPLICATED" avril lavigne
For the last eight Sundays, I have been attending a local church group whose mission is to understand migration. "Crossing Borders" a study for Catholics to understand migration.
I have now been to meetings on this subject from both sides.
I came to realize that the main opposition of illegal immigration for me was not the people coming but how some were framing the issue. First, I was upset with HOLA's demands. This includes Veronica Dahlberg’s insistence that the laws were wrong and any opposition was racist along the allegations that ICE agents were breaking down doors and spreading terror in the community. The "Letter" that ended up in the United States Senate that appeared to come from then-Council President William Horvath. This letter was composed by Dalhberg and rubber-stamped by Horvath. The final straw was a march through downtown Painesville with Mexican flags in the forefront and the American flag dragged by children through town, later followed by a rally in Veterans Park by out of state speakers claiming to take back what was originally theirs. All to the applause of Ms. Dahlberg and the crowd.
A member of this church group questioned the motives of the Rally Team. I explained to them that I believed Ms. Dahlberg is the main reason the group started.
We studied migration back to the time of Moses in the Bible. One constant I learned through all these weeks about the region, country or empire that was being migrated to; if they did not have control over the migration it usually ended with negative results for them. The American Indians’ policy (or lack of) towards European settlers is a good example.
At present, the United States does not have a policy.
First, these are my thoughts and not the thoughts or findings of the church group. I believe the first thing the United States government should do is control the border, not only to keep illegals out but that large area that doesn't have a fence is desert and people are dying trying to cross it. Let us put boots on the ground not only for security but also for the safety of the people trying to cross in that area.
This country has a strange policy over the years; a sign that says "KEEP OUT" under a sign that says, "HELP WANTED."
A myth most will find hard to believe; these people do not want to leave Mexico, they just do not want to starve to death. America offers a new life. They can watch American television as easily as we do. I do not believe there is a conspiracy to take over the country or destroy our culture they just want a better life. America has away that sucks you in... You become an "American" first and fast.
How is it that the country south of the richest country in the world is still a third world country? Instead of Mexico sending migrants north, why hasn't our government and religious leaders asked the Mexican government to get their act together. Mexico is rich in natural resources but its wealth seems to be concentrated in a small group of individuals. (Sound familiar?). Has NAFTA worked for or against the Mexican economy? How long before the drug gangs infiltrate our society to the extent they have in Mexico. Let us not forget about human trafficking… such as in the case of Jalapeno Loco in Mentor a couple of years ago.
For the last eight weeks, I have listened to what we, as Americans should do. The church should hold meetings for the migrants and explain what is expected of them.
Last week during the Republican debates, Newt Gingrich made statements that might end his chances of ever becoming President. I give him credit for a being somewhat of a realist. If the Hispanic population goes to the Democrats I believe, as he does, it will be the end of the Republican Party. I disagree with his premise that we should set up a group as second-class citizens, with local selective board panels. What is that famous American slogan "No taxation without representation?" I would like to hear a whole debate that just deals with illegal immigration so people will hear not just sound bites but each candidate’s solution along with the costs of their solution. Yes, President Obama's also.
I mentioned before that our Congressman receives mail 10 to 1 against amnesty. The numbers here on the blog will be higher. Only when you inevitably complain about this post will you please also give your solution to this problem. I for one do not have an easy answer.
Also on the blog. who or what you say is Anonymous, to myself and the readers..... Before you start to type remember a time will come when you may have to explain your comment to a higher power.
Yes it is Complicated.
posted by terminator1 @ 6:08 PM
33 Comments
33 Comments:
10 to 1 against illegal immigration on this blog? Probably more. Why?
I wonder if this blog was about Mentor, Concord or Madison, would the stats be the same. How about Oberlin? Would we hear more or less of "not in my back yard" from those cities?
Term, did the members of this church group have Hispanic neighbors all around them? Loud music and cars coming and going all hours of the day and night. More than one family or groups of men living in one house or apartment? After all, you don't see the rotten apples at church, they are at the bars, fighting, driving without a license and involved with drugs. Those are the ones changing MY neighborhood for the worse.
Are we Americans that different from city to city? Or maybe these other citizens just don't see the things some of us in Painesville live with every day.
I believe this issue is similar to our homeless and needy problems. People aren't only hungry on Sunday and holidays or during the time we are in church. Feeding someone on Thanksgiving Day doesn't solve the long term problem. How about the homeless? If we tried to do some of the same things done to these people to the Hispanics, What do you think would happen?
This problem won't be solved by the racists or the do gooders. The racists will blame all Hispanics and the ones that mean well will over look the ones who may be criminals or connected with drug dealers. Until the everyday American lives and works with the everyday Hispanic to make this city a better place to live, it will only get worse.
I also believe Hispanics need to have more willingness to become Americans than an attitude of what they are entitled to from Americans. They are "the new guy" and should do more to fit in and become LEGAL.
So, the 10 to 1 ratio against illegal immigration should be a LOT higher. It should and probably is less for legal immigration.
You say that America does not have a policy? We most certainly do have immigration policies, and we have laws on what to do with illegal immmigrants, too. But they are not being followed. If they were, none of this would have happened.
Of course the Catholic Church wants them all. They need them to keep up their churches. The Catholic Church does not have the right to help people break our laws. If they want to help these people, then go to Mexico and help them there. Help them march on their own governments to better things for themselves.
And you want to bring God into this? What do you think is going to happen to the WORLD when the Mexicans and the rest of illegals manage to take America down--which will be soon enough? And you are all assuming there will be some end to the illegals. What do you think...that the poor people are just here to better themselves? Well, there's a whole world out there of people whose countries are not as good as the United States, and there will continue to be no end to the illegal immigration until we have no more viable country. That is happening right now, and it will be over soon enough just with the people who are here already.
When I was a kid, they migrated for the growing season, and then went home. They were called migrant workers. Somehow they all started to stay and infiltrate our country. Now they are illegal immigrants, and they must go.
You want solutions? Tell these people they broke our laws and to get out NOW. Oh, that's right--they won't go.
We have to first make a fields-only work program that actually works for the farmers. We have one now, but it not a feasible program. We must have the issue of our farmers crops being taken care of before we can get the rest of them out. Meanwhile, implement e-verify all across the U.S. to get them out of our other jobs. If they can't work, most will turn around and go home. Remember, they all have their own countries to go to. Third, stop the anchor baby nonsense ASAP.
Anyone who wants to help them can go to their own countries to do it. Anyone who thinks they do not have a plan to take over and know they are doing so, is wrong. And if you don't think the Mexican government is in on it, you would be wrong. We have laws. They are breaking our laws, and the Catholic church has no right to talk about anyone ELSE'S motives.
We have troops all over the world fighting to keep America in one piece, while we at home sit on our butts and let the Catholic church pontificate about all these cheating, lying people, while we hand over America to them without even a fight.
I want to go live in Rome. I'm not going to do it legally. I'm just going to go illegally. I'm going to go work under-the-table, get free food, health care, etc. I'm going to take a job from a local, but they shouldn't mind. After all, when they get home from a hard day's work, they will know that a large part of their salary goes to me, so I can live better. As soon as I get established and I know that I can get away with it, I will send for at least 20 of my relatives, who in turn will all send for at least 20 of theirs. The Italians should be happy to support us, and Italy should be happy to have us. Just because we are immoral liars and cheaters and thieves shouldn't bother anyone. After all, we're just nice people trying to better ourselves. That's what I want to do and if anyone tries to stop me, I will march on their government demanding rights. It doesn't matter how many times they throw me out, I'm going to keep going back. I'm going to have a lot of children since they will support them for me, and if they threaten me that I have to leave, I am going to threaten, and then leave, my children behind. I'm a real upstanding person--I just don't know what problem anyone can have with me. They have plenty of money...why shouldn't I take MY share?
You say it is complicated. I say no it is NOT complicated. They are here illegally breaking our laws. They need to get out. And you want to bring God into it? Okay, does God advocate breaking laws, lying, cheating, stealing? I think not. You are welcome, as is anyone else, including the Catholic church to go to their country and advocate for them there.
Term, this is an excellent post, and I commend you for educating yourself about the problem. And let's not kid ourselves, we have a problem. I don't like what these people are doing to my neighborhood, either; yet, to be honest, when I need work done, it tends to be the Hispanics who can do it better and cheaper - everything from concrete to fall clean-up, if we want a good job done affordably, they are the ones who will do it.
YES YES YES the church should hold meetings for the migrants AND EXPLAIN WHAT IS EXPECTED - ie. learn English, respect this country, respect your neighbors, come into a neighborhood and make it better, don't ruin it with loud music and parties and kids running amok and garbage everywhere.
Both sides have to meet in the middle - find common ground - what do we ALL want? And work from there. I don't like having my neighborhood turned into a barrio but I sure do like the cheap help, and I bet I'm FAR from the only one, or these people wouldn't be here. At least I can admit it . . .
I'm a hypocrite. Out of one side of my mouth I say "get the hell out" and from the other I say "come and clean up these leaves."
We have apolicy? Explain it to me/ What we have is pass the bucket policy. You have laws why aren't they enforced by either party? We are told it would cost billions of dollars to deport them.
The Catholic Church doesn't hire them to work in there fields or factories? Do they? So to understand your thinking the nurserymen in Perry are in on this the take over of this country as well as businesses that hire them for construction to factory workers? Then they must be the ones committing treason?
Sure they can work cheaper. They don't have to pay taxes. They don't have to pay for medical care. They don't have to pay for housing. Their children are all paid for. They only have to have their drinking money and money to send home to Mexico. Just sayin.
The government is lying about it costing billions to deport them. We don't need to deport them. E-verify will take care of most of them--if they can't work, they will have to go HOME. And the rest should be pretty easy to find once we are not overrun by millions and millions.
The government is selling us out for votes. Plus they know we need our crops picked. They need to put a good temporary-workers program for the fields only in place, and that will solve THAT problem.
The Catholic Church is selling out America for members to keep their churches going, especially after the pedophiles lost a lot of members for the church. They can easily go help them in Mexico, and that is what they should be doing.
The farmers are the only people I do not blame. They need a good program in place to keep their businesses running, and they do not have it. No matter what people say, Americans do not want those jobs, and they will not be able to find enough workers without a program in place for that for foreign workers.
Every other business in the United States of America who hires illegals is selling America and Americans out for money.
Even if you look at no reason they must go except for national security, you tell me how we expect our government to keep us safe in our own country when it is overrun by people who should not be here, and for whom we have no names or records. It's insane.
I think our government is committing treason, and everyone in this country who helps these illegal criminals is an accessory.
Just keep sticking up for those illegals, Term, and blaming it on everyone but them. There are billions more on their way.
The laws of immigration are set in stone by the federal government.
unfortunately those at the Capital Hill are more worried about votes and those of the Mexican money providers for their coffers than doing their jobs. This thinking trickles down to every city/village/township. The groups that are challenging govermental mis/non/mal feasance of the law should have the "tremendous drive and support" of all of us to negate all of their terms of office for their ignorance to the laws of this country.
Rita M should be the first LOCAL to go as she has in her "Queendom" sent the message down the line to ignore, and treat lightly, the Mexican (latino) failures to assimilate and obey the ordinances of the city of P'Ville.
There are so many ordinances of law in this city that are totally ignored by this administration.
New Mr "D", as you come from a prosecuting era - look at the codes and tell me you as a new council member will tolerate mis/non/mal feasance of the elected and appointed in the city of P'ville?? If you show that you tolerate this (NOT DOING YOUR JOB as Written/Sending Directives to be Lax to those that do not follow all the Laws of Ordinances (especially the zoning codes for resident numbers)parking #'s, new driveways that are illegal and do go through the system of the commission/appeals group, et al;
You will be most guilty as the present administration has been for too too long.
The owners in this city (private/business) have had all they can take of the ignorance and lack of attention to our needs by this administration.
We are at the pinnacle to search for monies to take this city to the highest court and recall each and every elected and appointed employee. A forensic audit of the city finances will seal the deal!!
Term, have you ever gone to St. Mary's office? I have. I talked to one secretary and had to point to numbers and words until she understood what I was asking. So don't say the church doesn't hire them. Don't be so stupid as to say the church has fields and factories. Not a very intelligent statement.
Yes 4:51 PM...
This is incredibly unfair. Illegal's must be deported ASAP!!!! We have welfare moms in Painesville who desperately want to pick tomatoes and clean hotel toilets. Our welfare moms are being deprived of a chance to become decent productive members of society because of illegal's!
Term, maybe you'd like to give a little talk on what has happened to our border patrol agents on the border with Mexico--the injuries and deaths of agents. Or about the millions that that alone costs our country. I wonder how sorry we should feel for people who are purposefully putting themselves at risk to cross a desert they shouldn't be crossing on the way to commit the crime of entering our country illegally, and then continue to commit all kinds of crimes against us while they are here, when it puts my country's policing agencies, my country and also my country's treasure at great risk.
I'm going to go commit some crimes and then I'm going to blame the governement, the people of the United States of America and the Mexicans for it. It couldn't possibly be MY fault. And if someone wants to bother me about it, I think I'll go to the Catholic church for protection or to you. How do you think THAT would work out?
Hypocrite said...
"yet, to be honest, when I need work done, it tends to be the Hispanics who can do it better and cheaper - everything from concrete to fall clean-up, if we want a good job done affordably, they are the ones who will do it"
And that is why my 2 sons are out of work, do to the fact these pieces of crap are not paying taxes and insurance and they are not lic.& cert. and under cutting evreyone.
They need to all go to h_ _ _
Bring God into this? I'm not catholic but I am a Christian and in all my teaching since going to Sunday school we have been taught to welcome the stranger?
With this being a Christian country we seem to have forgotten this?
3:24: Not even close to the same concept. These people have their own countries that they should be in. I highly doubt that God would want the United States of America to collapse because we let all these people break our laws and steal from us. If you want to be a really good Christian, go to Mexico and the rest of their respective countries and fight for a better life for them, which is exactly what all of THEM need to be doing. God does not give us the right to go TAKE what we want from others just because we want it. Nowhere in His teachings does he say that.
3:24, welcome the lawbreaker? Welcome the rapists and the murderers that are sneaking in along with other so called "nice" people? At the expense of every single taxpayer? Not me, buddy. I will uphold the constitution of this great nation and no one will make me lay my country down to be a doormat for these losers.
It seems funny to me that many states have decided to make English there offical language? Why Ohio hasn't done this? I believe all of us are being taken by both party's.
Maybe the nurserymen have more clout than we know?
Ask Mr. Young.
Ask mr gilson
Congratulations Mr. Term, This is one of your better post. It is complicated. I am also annoyed at the extreme positions of both sides. Two years ago Senator Schumer [D-NY] and Senator Graham [R-SC] put together a plan with "4 Pillars". It's not a perfect plan. Both extremes were critical for different reasons. I thought it was a starting plan, a bipartisan plan. Check it out. just google Schumer and Graham Plan.
Yes, ask Mr. Gilson and others who employee them. It's all about the money.
Speaking of money. SB 5 was overturned just this month. So, what do you people think of the scandal in the Cleveland fire department where some were paid and never worked. One lives in New Mexico I think. Months of pay received for not working because they traded shifts and then didn't work.
Firemen were the ones I saw at my voting place opposing this law. How much did the unions pay to fight this? Again, it's all about the money.
MY TAX MONEY. I for one won't listen to them again.
3:35 WOW! You took me from Complicated to Confused?
What does Issue 2 SB 5 have to do with this post?
Please I get it's all about the money. The nursery's need employees that will work long, hard and cheap. No overtime, no benefits and when they fall ill I guess we are expected to pick-up the cost. Why not them?
They brag about it being an 80 million dollar business here in Lake County.
Most of the "farming" in Lake County has more to do with landscaping items rather then food products.
wasnt the catholic churches caught hiding over 50 illegals in the basement of the church a few years back.
Like I said. The money.
All the talk about bankers, wall street and corrupt elected officials.
Well, the nurseries and several businesses in Painesville are also part of the problem. They aren't part of the 1% but are using these people for their own profit and we are paying for them with our tax money to pay for their entitlements.
They put a strain on our schools and safety forces. That lowers the amount of money in the budgets and affects what we can pay our teachers and safety forces. Now we must find unfavorable ways to reduce costs or layoff more people. Lower the schools ratings and that lowers our property values.
So, while we blame the rich, we need to realize these people are to blame too.
Again, it's all about someone's money, or in this case profit. Fight the bankers and wall street if you want, but we need to clean up our own mess first.
4:48: The Schumer and Graham Plan is amnesty. What's new about that? If you want to help these theives, please go to their own countries to do it, and please take them all with you.
Interesting note: A while back when there was a lot of talk of making them all leave, the Mexican government was indignant and mad as hell. He demanded to know where they were going to put them all, and how they were going to take care of them all! Was demanding that we keep his country's people so WE could take care of them all. The situation is disgusting. They are disgusting. Anyone who wants to give them all their money can do so, just go do it in THEIR country, and get them the h___ out of here.
The question that begs to be asked, what about the illegals bothers you the most? Breaking the law, language, cultural differences. strange to you nationality? There must be something that they are doing besides trying to make a living that's driving this?
Breaking the Law.
That includes many different men or families living in same house, working under the table and collecting welfare too, cars coming and going all hours of day and night, cars parked all over yards, loud music and basic disrespect for others' property and quality of life in their own homes and property. How many have had their gardens raided? Need I say more, because we can all add to that list.
If these actions were committed by an American citizen, they would be cited by the city and taken to court.
Anon 12/1 - 3:36pm
Any question about illegals has been answered at this post and all across the U.S. Their folks back home learn from those that have come here (regardless of method) that they are free to do anything, claim anything, receive anything without payment on their part!! The something that they are doing is coming illegally to the U.S. because they know that so many government entities are too Afraid to pursue the stated laws of their actions/ignorance: because, this would cost more than any monies to deport them. In addition, our officials at the "HILL" (and local communities) have absolutely no education to handle the imported folks when they carry many negative weapons in their pursuit of making sure that their low-life will continue on. Threats of "this is our take-over of our Country" have been heard all across Painesville. Who To Blame, YES and YES - Federal/State/County/ and all Local Governments.
The ORDINANCES of LAW on all levels
have become MOOT!!
Comments on this post speak of what you have asked for. For all of these comments, is it not time that all of you put together a petition to the City of Paine to really beautifie this city by enforcing the Laws and stopping the degredation created by the ignorant population that thinks they can invade/take-over/abuse properties/always have free rights/no city payroll taxes/and turn around and say they are so poor and trying to gain a new life and go forward. The U.S. helps those to come here on the basis that they grow and help themselves. It has never been based that you come here for freedom and you overly milk the system as you have been doing.
Shame on the Gov't, on all levels for your skinny-wash: as you have become the "chicken Little" and have no directions (only high wage directions) to ENFORCE THE LAWS OF THE FEDERAL GOV'T/STATE/ AND LOCAL WHICH IS YOUR OATH OF PROTECTIONS FOR WE THE CITIZENS.
GO HOME ON YOUR END OF YEAR VACATIONS AND REALLY THINK HOW YOU HAVE FAILED AND LEFT THIS COUNTRY AND THE PEOPLE NOT ONLY IN TURMOIL BUT UNPROTECTED/DENIED/FORCED INTO A GARBAGE AND INDECENT INFLUX OF DANGER. THANKS FOR YOUR SELFISH STUPIDITY.
3:36, for goodness sake. Dont try to turn this into a racist issue. You know what bothers me most? That they are expecting a free ride and bankrupting our country. How about the fact that they hate us. We are just their sugar momma. Thats what i hate.
3:36: "There must be something that they are doing besides trying to make a living that's driving this?"
Knock it off. Every AMERICAN wants to make a living, too. But we do not go into other countries illegally, blame it on everyone but ourselves, and steal from that country in every possible way.
I'll tell you what is wrong. We have at least 30 million illegal people in our country by my account. They are bleeding me and my country dry. Do you know how many Americans I know that cannot afford health insurance? And at the same time, do you know how many billions we must be doling out in free health care to the illegals? I don't like them stealing money or jobs or the culture of my country from me. I do not give them permission to take over. They HAVE THEIR OWN COUNTRIES. And every time they refuse to leave and demand rights, as they are in Alabama right now, it makes me just a little bit sicker. I don't break laws, and I think it's just so much nerve that they do IN MY COUNTRY, and people like you apparantly think it's okay.
Do you think there will be an end to the illegals? That's what America thought the last TWO times we gave amnesty to these people. It doesn't work. There are always millions more who will come after that. And if you want to give them even more incentive than they have now, go ahead and legalize these 30 million. Then it won't even matter. The borders will be opened up, this will be Mexico, too, and you will be the one looking for a handout.
Trust me 3:36, there is no huge, deep seated, psychological issue. It's very simple really. We have OUR country, and they have theirs, and they need to go back to them. I'm tired of sharing my toys, and they need to go home now.
Folks...7:02 is right ...it is all ablout the money. If big business didn't want the cheap labor, illegals wouldn't be here. They get the cheaper employees and we subsidize it. Please don't insult my intelligence about how much more my stuff would cost if we didn't have illegal labor....I would rather pay more upfront at the grocery store so an American can work than pay more in taxes so big business can increase their profits.
What do I hate about them? Well, I'm basically selfish. I don't think too much about numbers, money, or jobs. Believe me, no ignorant mestizo is a threat to my job. So yeah, I'm selfish. What I hate about them is basic. I hate their rude behavior, their NOISE, their garbage, their million screaming kids, running wild at all hours. I hate their loud music. I hate the men urinating behind their garage in broad daylight. I hate the fact that after years and years here many of them still don't speak English. I hate their refusal to assimilate into our culture. I hate seeing a Mexican shop or restaurant on every street corner, going into the drugstore and being surrounded by people jabbering in Spanish, with lots of noisy children in tow who haven't been taught how to behave in public. I hate seeing how they are trying to turn my neighborhood, my city, my COUNTRY, into another Mexico. And though I'm not a political person, I really hate it when they stage their rallies and protests, disrespecting the American flag and demanding "rights." Instead of respecting and appreciating this country, they are basically spitting on it and then demanding more and more "rights." I find it disgusting.
I didn't feel this way years ago. I was one of those who believed "they are just good people trying to make a living" and I was supportive of "diversity." Well, after years of living here, I've had more than enough "diversity" and I would be happy if I never had to hear Spanish spoken in my presence again. Not to mention their horrible music.
4:24: So I'm not the only one that had my garden raided? Man, these people are sleezy thieves. We had a Mexican move in two doors down. We never got one good thing from our garden all season long. He took it all. Finally, they moved out in time for us to have one or two end-of-season, pathetic tomatoes. We have let in many millions of thieving liars who people are still calling "just nice people looking to better their lives." If you want to know what we are turning into, just take a gander into Mexico. It's no mistake that is what their country is--they made it that way. Now they are doing it to our country while we pay them to do it.
Just nice people, my a$$.
Term, You and your border crossing buddies got anything to say about the assualt at the J loco joint?
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